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Is Kronos on it's way out?
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iowagold
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:58 pm    Post subject: I would love a kronos rack!! Reply with quote

I would love a kronos rack!!
I would love to see korg do a rack unit that was low cost (below 500.00 usd)
so if we needed to layer we could do several units...

I just find the work station as too confining for the stuff I produce...
unless I multi track record and spend months tracking...
a work station is ok but not a total one man band.....

but with that said they are total amazing with what you can get it to do if you have the time to set it up with pre programmed scene and changes....

if you had several ranks of a kronos then you could get there.....

that is the reason for thinking a kronos rack would work....
use it as a midi addition.....

I do so much with layers... it gets my sound....
and a bit over 40 sound modules gets me there...

zero latiency with the rack hardware modules....
or at least not enough to be detected by ear...

and i never have to worry about software wanting to update right in the middle of a project like on computer based!!

so i say bring on the kronos rack!!
I would buy at least 2 of them!!
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've got my vote on that - a Kronos module would be exquisite.

I'd also settle for all of the on board synth engines as a set of VST / AU Plugins.
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voip
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The debate currently ongoing on the Kronos part of the forum, about FM synthesis, just serves to emphasise that the Kronos isn't done yet. It is one heck of a deeply capable instrument that most folks barely get to scratch the surface of, in terms of sound design. Could and should the Kronos be improved upon? I think so. A well crafted dedicated wind instrument engine wouldn't go amiss, capable of catering for the rich diversity of colours and articulations possible when playing such instruments. Similarly an engine catering for bowed instruments. The existing platform might even be sufficient, given Korg's ability to extract performance out of the current hardware, though a processor upgrade would undoubtedly give performance improvements. There's still a long musical mile left in the Kronos and/or its immediate successor.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

voip wrote:
The debate currently ongoing on the Kronos part of the forum, about FM synthesis, just serves to emphasise that the Kronos isn't done yet. It is one heck of a deeply capable instrument that most folks barely get to scratch the surface of, in terms of sound design.

There's still a long musical mile left in the Kronos and/or its immediate successor.

.


thats been 1 of my gripes- no high level programming or development for some years. Something similar to the Hotop/Korg sound design standard.

I would be happy to pay for that caliber of quality.
[ not referring to 3rd party sample libs].

I suspect the business economics and time required has stifled this development. Maybe the ' market ' for this quality isn't that convincing.

Likely many buy more gear, other synths, VI's to satisfy the need.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intersante the subject. In my opinion, I would continue to bet on Kronos, I think that for those of us who work live, it's great, everything we can do with Kronos.
If Korg, did not want to invest more in our Kronos, could get an upgrade from Kronos (but not cosmetics), but one where the software was renewed, with new software, with the latest technology. (Maybe I'm dreaming a lot)
But well, it would not bother me at all, in that Korg gives us an OS update to 4.0 and a good amount of new sounds, made by Korg and not by third parties.
Anyway, I'm lucky to have a Kronos, just in this month I'm renewing the whole keybed and placing a 500 GB disk, because I want to have Kronos for a while. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wsadj wrote:
Intersante the subject. In my opinion, I would continue to bet on Kronos, I think
Anyway, I'm lucky to have a Kronos, just in this month I'm renewing the whole keybed and placing a 500 GB disk, because I want to have Kronos for a while. Very Happy


wish list stuff, aside, I agree with adding the 2nd SSD. The keybed gets the most wear and use so thats a very wise move.
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Wsadj
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
Wsadj wrote:
Intersante the subject. In my opinion, I would continue to bet on Kronos, I think
Anyway, I'm lucky to have a Kronos, just in this month I'm renewing the whole keybed and placing a 500 GB disk, because I want to have Kronos for a while. Very Happy


wish list stuff, aside, I agree with adding the 2nd SSD. The keybed gets the most wear and use so thats a very wise move.


Thanks Greg, I feel praised coming from an expert like you.
At the end of this month, I finish all the renewal.
Also, in July I will take advantage of some holidays to create new sounds and improve with some details the ones I already have.
Whenever I listen to the music of great musicians, I realize that I can do more and better, thanks to my Kronos.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wsadj wrote:
GregC wrote:
Wsadj wrote:
Intersante the subject. In my opinion, I would continue to bet on Kronos, I think
Anyway, I'm lucky to have a Kronos, just in this month I'm renewing the whole keybed and placing a 500 GB disk, because I want to have Kronos for a while. Very Happy


wish list stuff, aside, I agree with adding the 2nd SSD. The keybed gets the most wear and use so thats a very wise move.


Thanks Greg, I feel praised coming from an expert like you.
At the end of this month, I finish all the renewal.
Also, in July I will take advantage of some holidays to create new sounds and improve with some details the ones I already have.
Whenever I listen to the music of great musicians, I realize that I can do more and better, thanks to my Kronos.


I have yrs on my K but I am not deep on some areas, such as sound programming.

I get immense satisfaction on recording songs on the K, using multiple instruments. AFAIAC, Kronos is a song writers best friend.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say that I would not be interested in another upgrade in the form of a KRONOS 2019.

This year the smaller companies are shining as the ones making the big strides forward, just think of the specs of for example the Valkyrie (now the upcoming Waldorf Kyra), or the Prophet X.
The latter certainly is expensive, but the sounds I have heard coming out of it are exquisite, aided by both a huge onboard sample library plus the analog filters.

It may not be feasible for a KORG to develop sample libraries on par with what today is on offer, but why reinvent the wheel if partnerships are possible with specialized companies?
I am convinced it would benefit both parties, especially when you consider how some software instruments have so much untapped potential due to the lack of a direct hands-on experience.

So if anything I am hoping for big strides forward instead of another minor step on the evolutionary ladder.
The OASYS was a big step forward at the time, but that was over 13 years ago.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jan1 wrote:
I have to say that I would not be interested in another upgrade in the form of a KRONOS 2019.

1)This year the smaller companies are shining as the ones making the big strides forward, just think of the specs of for example the Valkyrie (now the upcoming Waldorf Kyra), or the Prophet X.
The latter certainly is expensive, but the sounds I have heard coming out of it are exquisite, aided by both a huge onboard sample library plus the analog filters.

It may not be feasible for a KORG to develop sample libraries on par with what today is on offer,

2) but why reinvent the wheel if partnerships are possible with specialized companies?
I am convinced it would benefit both parties, especially when you consider how some software instruments have so much untapped potential due to the lack of a direct hands-on experience.

So if anything I am hoping for big strides forward instead of another minor step on the evolutionary ladder.
The OASYS was a big step forward at the time, but that was over 13 years ago.


Good post.

1) I agree with this. There are a lot of interesting music toys ( excuse the term) to play with, more and more this year, and likely next year 2.

I am budget oriented, and plan 1 yr out. I also think Korg is taking far too long
to move above/beyond Kronos. As a result, the musician $ are flowing elsewhere. I am an example of that to a fair extent.

I am referring to musicians that keep current with gear, on whatever platform. Call them the early adopters + folks who buy every yr, etc etc. I would not assume this large group of buyers will suddenly find $3500-$4000 for a Kronos 3 , etc. Or decide to sell off what they bought in the past 2 years to fund a K3 purchase.

IOW, its best for a Korg or a Roland to time the market when the window is open the most. True, the marketplace is growing and healthy. Other cos are capitalizing on this, IMO.

2) Since Korg changed Presidents and management, there is an effort to not rely on 3rd parties for development. Look at Steven Kay and Karma as a stark example of this. While your point is completely logical, Korg does not think in a straight line. For those 2 reasons, and per my " Korg Watching " they will not collaborate like you suggest.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
Jan1 wrote:
I have to say that I would not be interested in another upgrade in the form of a KRONOS 2019.

1)This year the smaller companies are shining as the ones making the big strides forward, just think of the specs of for example the Valkyrie (now the upcoming Waldorf Kyra), or the Prophet X.
The latter certainly is expensive, but the sounds I have heard coming out of it are exquisite, aided by both a huge onboard sample library plus the analog filters.

It may not be feasible for a KORG to develop sample libraries on par with what today is on offer,

2) but why reinvent the wheel if partnerships are possible with specialized companies?
I am convinced it would benefit both parties, especially when you consider how some software instruments have so much untapped potential due to the lack of a direct hands-on experience.

So if anything I am hoping for big strides forward instead of another minor step on the evolutionary ladder.
The OASYS was a big step forward at the time, but that was over 13 years ago.


Good post.

1) I agree with this. There are a lot of interesting music toys ( excuse the term) to play with, more and more this year, and likely next year 2.

I am budget oriented, and plan 1 yr out. I also think Korg is taking far too long
to move above/beyond Kronos. As a result, the musician $ are flowing elsewhere. I am an example of that to a fair extent.

I am referring to musicians that keep current with gear, on whatever platform. Call them the early adopters + folks who buy every yr, etc etc. I would not assume this large group of buyers will suddenly find $3500-$4000 for a Kronos 3 , etc. Or decide to sell off what they bought in the past 2 years to fund a K3 purchase.

IOW, its best for a Korg or a Roland to time the market when the window is open the most. True, the marketplace is growing and healthy. Other cos are capitalizing on this, IMO.

2) Since Korg changed Presidents and management, there is an effort to not rely on 3rd parties for development. Look at Steven Kay and Karma as a stark example of this. While your point is completely logical, Korg does not think in a straight line. For those 2 reasons, and per my " Korg Watching " they will not collaborate like you suggest.



Stepping away from Karma would mean a blow to the whole Kronos concept.

Also there is the MAXX audio in the PA4x..

And the fact that Korg for both these instruments seems to rely on 3rd parties for the editors.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
Since Korg changed Presidents and management, there is an effort to not rely on 3rd parties for development.

On the other hand, as Bachus already pointed out, KORG has partnerships for the PA4X with TC Helicon and Waves, and the Prologue is open for third party developers, so who knows?

I am convinced there are opportunities here for both software developers and the traditional hardware manufacturers if they come together, since there's a lot of software which could benefit from a direct hands-on experience.

There's a huge amount of money involved with trying to do it all yourself, and it could drive the price of for example a new workstation up to great heights.
Even without a partnership the support of VST alone would be a huge improvement in terms of opening up the architecture of a new workstation.
A challenge KORG faces is how to expand and move forward while keeping it simple and intuitive.

I'm sure Dave Smith will continue to team up with other companies.
Roland has the Boutique collaboration with Studio Electronics.
Just imagine if Roland were to form a partnership with Eric Persing and come up with for example the Omnisphere hardware synth.

There's a lot to be gained for all involved, and even if KORG does not want to form partnerships then at least they could open up the next workstation a bit more and truly live up to the ideal of the 'O' in OASYS.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bachus wrote:
GregC wrote:
Jan1 wrote:
I have to say that I would not be interested in another upgrade in the form of a KRONOS 2019.

1)This year the smaller companies are shining as the ones making the big strides forward, just think of the specs of for example the Valkyrie (now the upcoming Waldorf Kyra), or the Prophet X.
The latter certainly is expensive, but the sounds I have heard coming out of it are exquisite, aided by both a huge onboard sample library plus the analog filters.

It may not be feasible for a KORG to develop sample libraries on par with what today is on offer,

2) but why reinvent the wheel if partnerships are possible with specialized companies?
I am convinced it would benefit both parties, especially when you consider how some software instruments have so much untapped potential due to the lack of a direct hands-on experience.

So if anything I am hoping for big strides forward instead of another minor step on the evolutionary ladder.
The OASYS was a big step forward at the time, but that was over 13 years ago.


Good post.

1) I agree with this. There are a lot of interesting music toys ( excuse the term) to play with, more and more this year, and likely next year 2.

I am budget oriented, and plan 1 yr out. I also think Korg is taking far too long
to move above/beyond Kronos. As a result, the musician $ are flowing elsewhere. I am an example of that to a fair extent.

I am referring to musicians that keep current with gear, on whatever platform. Call them the early adopters + folks who buy every yr, etc etc. I would not assume this large group of buyers will suddenly find $3500-$4000 for a Kronos 3 , etc. Or decide to sell off what they bought in the past 2 years to fund a K3 purchase.

IOW, its best for a Korg or a Roland to time the market when the window is open the most. True, the marketplace is growing and healthy. Other cos are capitalizing on this, IMO.

2) Since Korg changed Presidents and management, there is an effort to not rely on 3rd parties for development. Look at Steven Kay and Karma as a stark example of this. While your point is completely logical, Korg does not think in a straight line. For those 2 reasons, and per my " Korg Watching " they will not collaborate like you suggest.



Stepping away from Karma would mean a blow to the whole Kronos concept.

.


you missed the memo from + 7 years ago. True, Karma is not gone, But its plain as day DOA for development inside Kronos.

There is great support for existing Karma. I love Karma for drums. But no development in the K. I recall Stephen talking to this some years ago.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jan1 wrote:
GregC wrote:
Since Korg changed Presidents and management, there is an effort to not rely on 3rd parties for development.

On the other hand, as Bachus already pointed out, KORG has partnerships for the PA4X with TC Helicon and Waves, and the Prologue is open for third party developers, so who knows?

I am convinced there are opportunities here for both software developers and the traditional hardware manufacturers if they come together, since there's a lot of software which could benefit from a direct hands-on experience.

There's a huge amount of money involved with trying to do it all yourself, and it could drive the price of for example a new workstation up to great heights.
Even without a partnership the support of VST alone would be a huge improvement in terms of opening up the architecture of a new workstation.
A challenge KORG faces is how to expand and move forward while keeping it simple and intuitive.

I'm sure Dave Smith will continue to team up with other companies.
Roland has the Boutique collaboration with Studio Electronics.
Just imagine if Roland were to form a partnership with Eric Persing and come up with for example the Omnisphere hardware synth.

There's a lot to be gained for all involved, and even if KORG does not want to form partnerships then at least they could open up the next workstation a bit more and truly live up to the ideal of the 'O' in OASYS.


I appreciate that. I am not familiar with Korg arrangers. It likely makes business sense for Korg to collaborate. Both products definitely enhance the arranger experience.

Prologue provides an open API. The tools and development are at the user/owner level. It is clever and an important concept. But its not a business collaboration in the strict sense.

I agree with your practical main point. Combine strengths. If this puzzle can be solved , implemented at the Korg level, we would see exciting new products faster vs once every 7-10 years. My criticism is directed at the work station. Development seems stalled.

I also believe there is 1 chance in 3 that Korg will not produce a new W/s in the next 2 years. Its been clear , for this year, Korg has other priorities.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've made the point for the past 10 years that I'd love to see AU /VST developments with Karma; with a far superior GUI interface.

I appreciate it's hugely complex and capable - but - few if any of us are using more than perhaps 5 - 10% of it's capabilities; and with equally complex documentation, it's a challenge. I mean - the document explaining the different kinds of GEs is impenetrable to me - and I spent two solid years in 3rd and 4th year of Uni studying quantum mechanics which I aced! I'm not joking here - Karma documentation is incredibly dense and abstract.

Stephen Kay is a phenomenon, and Karma is _amazing_ - but - to us mere mortals - it's too cerebral. I just can't get my head around it.

But I'm not talking about making it's capabilities lesser - I'm talking about a re-invented interface to make it more intuitive to use, and easier to control - and within a DAW environment.

I'll give you one example (of many) where it frustrated me to the point that I gave up on a project using it - I came up with an amazing sequence on my Korg Karma workstation that lead to a stunning piece. Then, I accidentally deleted the program with the sequence - and when I tried to recreate it I couldn't because it used random seeding. It drove me nuts for weeks. I mean - it drove me to distraction. I was close to putting an axe through the workstation with frustration. I tried everything, but to no avail. It was the centre piece for an album I was working on and I got so frustrated that I stopped all work on the album - I couldn't face having lost that sequence and the main piece - and so it all lies there, months of work, dormant and incomplete, a decade later - months of work abandoned because of the nightmare that is controlling Karma.

While I accept I should I have backed it up (and I have rigorous backing up regimes in place but just accidentally deleted this program before backing up), the issue was also associated with Karma random seeding - I simply could not recreate the sequence no matter how many times I tried. Nightmare!

For something like that there needs to be incredibly simple means of capturing it. I suspect one of you will come back and say there is - but it's just - overall - there's too much going on in Karma and I for one can't use it in any context of any "sane" composing - it's just not set up to work within the composing process of normal composers.


If you take Spectrasoncs RMX Stylus for example - everything is clear, logical, laid out, manageable - this sort of visual clarity is needed for all aspects of Karma.

So I see it as this gargantuan technology that never really got going because nobody ever understood it or how to manage it.

And as amazing as a Karmafied Combi is - nobody writes music using them - they are great for demos -but - there needs' to be a far more integrated way of using GE's in an arrangement of a song _you_ are writing, with visual clarity as to what each variant of a GE is doing on screen. It ALL has to be editable, manageable at all times for composers who believe in their own work.

So to me Karma, as mazing as it is, is not suited to workstations, and I'd dearly love to see an AU / VST DAW version that has radically better GUI interaction and visual feedback.
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