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Pa4X same mainboard & sound engine as Pa3XLe and Pa600 ?
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alfredokiwi
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:49 am    Post subject: Pa4X same mainboard & sound engine as Pa3XLe and Pa600 ? Reply with quote

Hi folks,

I want to know how is the sound quality on Pa4X doing recordings via USB stick and the vocal harmonizer. On Pa3XLe the recordings via USB stick are not outstanding this issue happens more when vocal harmonizer is in use which I think this happens due the lack of enough OMAP processor cores & DSP speed. Such OMAP technology is in use today on tablets and smartphones and here came the question about the sound quality for a professional arranger using same hardware. Because there is no way to record digital to PC the only option is the built in mp3 memory stick for digital recordings.

I have a Pa3XLe which use the same mainboard as the Pa900 and Pa600 and doing some research on internet the Pa4X seems to use same OMAP processor and mainboard no changes at all inside.

Anyone have used the entire features on Pa4X doing vocal recordings with harmony to USB stick?? How sounds recordings in quality is the question.
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Last edited by alfredokiwi on Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:21 am; edited 3 times in total
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Ron
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assume you have read and are following the section in the manual on mp3 recording.

I am no expert but I think the recorded mp3 file quality should be the same whether it is saved to hard disk or USB stick.

I do not understand the relevance of the tech details you mention.

What I can tell you is that a microphone picks up not just the voice of the singer or instrument but everything that it hears. The quality of my recordings has improved greatly when I record the 4x with harmonizer using only my headphones rather than my speakers.

Unfortunately this does not improve the quality of my voice.
Laughing
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Snoopy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyway you should not record to USB-Stick directly.

First record to internal "Korg-DISK", and then, after recording is finished,save it to stick / HDD.

I doubt, that the built in hardware is similar to the "old" ones, due to much more features the newer instruments have.

Regarding user´s voice : Regardless of the used microphone / equipment :

s**t in => s**t out Wink
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snoopy wrote:
Anyway you should not record to USB-Stick directly.

First record to internal "Korg-DISK", and then, after recording is finished,save it to stick / HDD.

I doubt, that the built in hardware is similar to the "old" ones, due to much more features the newer instruments have.

Regarding user´s voice : Regardless of the used microphone / equipment :

s**t in => s**t out Wink


The hardware, is similar, same processor, same mainboard, altough looks like there is more memmory on the pa4x..

Thats also why some pa3x features didn’t make it to the pa3x and why many things are not compatible... they had to drop some features to squeeze the last bit of juice out of the pa4x processing..

Seems to me that this processor is the last of the line... and switching to a new type of modern processor will take a huge programming effort... with korg europe undermanned... i hope that they can make this effort for the pa5x...
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alfredokiwi
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snoopy wrote:
Anyway you should not record to USB-Stick directly.

First record to internal "Korg-DISK", and then, after recording is finished,save it to stick / HDD.

I doubt, that the built in hardware is similar to the "old" ones, due to much more features the newer instruments have.

Regarding user´s voice : Regardless of the used microphone / equipment :

s**t in => s**t out Wink


Recording always to internal Korg disk over time will destroy the eeprom memory chip such situation happens in today solid hard drives because to much write cycles affects memory chips endurance. To avoid that the use of a USB stick for recordings prevents the damage of the mainboard internal eeprom memory. From my point of view the lack of raw processing power on OMAP/DSP processor is the root cause about poor recordings on Pa3XLe.
My question came because on youtube nobody shows the quality of voice recordings on flagship model Pa4x. Sounds a bit strange the lack of information regarding full recordings using the harmonizer and the mp3 feature on Pa4X.
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Last edited by alfredokiwi on Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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alfredokiwi
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron wrote:
I assume you have read and are following the section in the manual on mp3 recording.

I am no expert but I think the recorded mp3 file quality should be the same whether it is saved to hard disk or USB stick.

I do not understand the relevance of the tech details you mention.

What I can tell you is that a microphone picks up not just the voice of the singer or instrument but everything that it hears. The quality of my recordings has improved greatly when I record the 4x with harmonizer using only my headphones rather than my speakers.

Unfortunately this does not improve the quality of my voice.
Laughing


I use an external effects processor for the microphone before the Pa3XLe because the microphone compressor feature on Pa3XLe acts like a signal limiter without true compression. Using an external effects processor improved the voice quality on recordings because the mic signal compression is real like "true compression". Despite that quality issues remains on mp3 recording.
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Ron
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alfredo - I was just trying so say what most recording engineers probably learn on day 1 .... use monitor headphones not speakers when recording to avoid the mush created when the mic picks up what comes out of the monitor speakers. You seem far more knowledgeable than me on this subject so I am sure you know this. Sorry I could not be more helpful.
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alfredokiwi
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron wrote:
Alfredo - I was just trying so say what most recording engineers probably learn on day 1 .... use monitor headphones not speakers when recording to avoid the mush created when the mic picks up what comes out of the monitor speakers. You seem far more knowledgeable than me on this subject so I am sure you know this. Sorry I could not be more helpful.


I use always headphones on Pa3XLe is impossible to record with near field monitors because of the signal feedback and room reflections. The main problem is on the mp3 encoder doing recordings because seems to overload the OMAP processor.
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musiccankill
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my tests the maximum i have managed to force the pa4x dsp to go is ~80% so no , its not a limitation of the processor ...
Also the processor is not the same part on all of the models noted but it has the same footprint so visually when you look at the shape of it , it is the same but in reality the pa4x has a faster processor of the same family....
These are not used by mobile phones that much cause they include a dsp inside ,its not just an arm core...
Also there is no eeprom inside...The only flash memory is an eMMC (different size on each model)
And yes it will fail at some point in the future as all memories do we can do nothing about it...(no we can't change it as it is soldered on board and nobody has it contents except korg)...
Also i am not sure about pa900/3xle but pa600 has no MAXX audio dsp inside and i think the other 2 don't have it too so pa4x has a way better audio output than these older machines...
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alfredokiwi
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

musiccankill wrote:
From my tests the maximum i have managed to force the pa4x dsp to go is ~80% so no , its not a limitation of the processor ...
Also the processor is not the same part on all of the models noted but it has the same footprint so visually when you look at the shape of it , it is the same but in reality the pa4x has a faster processor of the same family....
These are not used by mobile phones that much cause they include a dsp inside ,its not just an arm core...
Also there is no eeprom inside...The only flash memory is an eMMC (different size on each model)
And yes it will fail at some point in the future as all memories do we can do nothing about it...(no we can't change it as it is soldered on board and nobody has it contents except korg)...
Also i am not sure about pa900/3xle but pa600 has no MAXX audio dsp inside and i think the other 2 don't have it too so pa4x has a way better audio output than these older machines...


Ok but on Pa3XLe I noticed CPU/DSP overloading using the mp3 recording and vocal harmonizer. Running a system at 80% load doesn't means that there are 20% of headroom resources available in other words the overloaded CPU/DSP situation happens on all models leading to operational issues for example notes polyphony cut off, slow down of the CPU, increased latency and so on. Such situation happens on budget Pa900/Pa3xLe to flagship Pa4X model. Maybe the entry level arranger Pa600 seems to be the most balanced of all having less features avoiding the CPU/DSP overloading which is a real mess.

The built in DSP on OMAP chips is not a feature of high performance processors is more targeted to reduce design costs for today tablets and smartphones because is cheaper as using separate DSPs chips for signal processing. Fortunately I payed for my Pa3XLe 1500 dollars new because there was a rebate of 1000 dollars on stores.

Despite the opinions we are talking about professional arrangers that costs 2500 to 4000 dollars in the USA meaning that the CPU and DSP processing power should be enough running all the features flawlessly to avoid operational issues.
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musiccankill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

80% means it is not overloaded.80% peak is what i am talking about!
Also do you know which CPU is inside the pa?
If not how do you know that the dsp doesn't have enough power?
Pa3x has for sure no cpu/dsp overload issues as it has less than half the efx of pa4x and as you know the efx are the more dsp intensive part of sound processing...Even pa4x doesn't have it, it can handle much more but for some reason they are not active ...
Unfortunately it is illegal and against the forum rules to go deeper on that subject here and in public in general...
I can just assure you that the processing power is enough to handle everything already included else it wouldn't be there in the first place...
Note cutoff is a polyphony issue (you can reach max (128) polyphony even with 5-6 notes playing) if you haven't done careful sound programming...
This could cause some slow downs if you exceed aprox 150-160 osc at once but i don't see how it could reduce the sound quality..
If a slow down occurs (never managed to do it on 4x yet but managed to do it on 3x after a lot of tries with sounds that will never be programmed in real life ( i was just testing the limits ) it will either cause clicks/pops (kronos had this too at some point) or if it is a rythm playing (that happened to me) it will feel like it triggered the next note/notes with a delay in the region of 10-20ms which most users will never be able to find out...
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alfredokiwi
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

musiccankill wrote:
80% means it is not overloaded.80% peak is what i am talking about!
Also do you know which CPU is inside the pa?
If not how do you know that the dsp doesn't have enough power?
Pa3x has for sure no cpu/dsp overload issues as it has less than half the efx of pa4x and as you know the efx are the more dsp intensive part of sound processing...Even pa4x doesn't have it, it can handle much more but for some reason they are not active ...
Unfortunately it is illegal and against the forum rules to go deeper on that subject here and in public in general...
I can just assure you that the processing power is enough to handle everything already included else it wouldn't be there in the first place...
Note cutoff is a polyphony issue (you can reach max (128) polyphony even with 5-6 notes playing) if you haven't done careful sound programming...
This could cause some slow downs if you exceed aprox 150-160 osc at once but i don't see how it could reduce the sound quality..
If a slow down occurs (never managed to do it on 4x yet but managed to do it on 3x after a lot of tries with sounds that will never be programmed in real life ( i was just testing the limits ) it will either cause clicks/pops (kronos had this too at some point) or if it is a rythm playing (that happened to me) it will feel like it triggered the next note/notes with a delay in the region of 10-20ms which most users will never be able to find out...


The question in this post is very simple how is the quality on Pa4X using its full features (TC-Helicon + mp3 recorder the only way to export material in digital format) because the mainboard seems to be the same in hardware specs as Pa3XLe, Pa900 and Pa600.

The Pa3XLe is terrible in sound quality regarding mp3 recordings an the TC-Helicon vocal processor caused by the overloaded cheap OMAP CPU/DSP a technology used in today tablets and smartphones. I put videos on my facebook exposing the issues. Because nobody published on youtube videos about the sound quality on Pa4X doing recordings via mp3 recorder and TC-Helicon voice harmonizer after 3 years released seems a bit strange.
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musiccankill
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to see those videos so please pm me your facebook if you wish!
What i m trying to explain though is that i believe it is not overloading of the dsp the problem if you don't like how it sounds..It is just not the best code in the world...
Like when you compare a cheap reverb unit to a lexicon pcm series one..
The lexicon processor is not more powerful at all..It is the dsp code it is running that makes the difference!
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alfredokiwi
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

musiccankill wrote:
I would like to see those videos so please pm me your facebook if you wish!
What i m trying to explain though is that i believe it is not overloading of the dsp the problem if you don't like how it sounds..It is just not the best code in the world...
Like when you compare a cheap reverb unit to a lexicon pcm series one..
The lexicon processor is not more powerful at all..It is the dsp code it is running that makes the difference!


Yesterday I played on Pa3XLe and noticed the CPU overloading, such issue happens randomly and more when you play long songs using at the same time the mic. Turning on the mp3 recorder worse more the OMAP CPU overloading going to a slow down on response the touch screen freezes and some notes are not played starting to cut notes and audio input. As conclusion a tiny OMAP processor doing all the tasks can´t handle properly the functions for a professional arranger.
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musiccankill
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well i am not here to argue with anybody, i am here to help so i am going to stop responding to the topic here..
Just for your info though the processor inside pa costs almost as much as a 8th gen intel i3 and it is way better for this specific application (dsp)...
So i can't see what could be considered an upgrade..
Also it seems that you had never played with a pa3x , or even worse pa800/pa2x as newer linux systems are 500% (if not more) more powerful and quick in doing things...Just an example, to boot pa3x with a usb locked set full 256mb you will have to wait 12 minutes and 5 seconds (if your battery is dead and is not keeping everything in ram while the system is powered off else it needs about 4:30 mins) ...
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