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Pa3XLe DSP overload issues poor TC-Helicon

 
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alfredokiwi
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:11 pm    Post subject: Pa3XLe DSP overload issues poor TC-Helicon Reply with quote

Hi folks,

I recorded a video about the issue related to internal DSP overloading. Such issue happens randomly but the main problem is the poor quality on TC-Helicon vocal processing. Anyone have experienced such issues on Pa3XLe, Pa900 or Pa1000?


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musiccankill
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The loops in the video (parts replaying) are of your video right?
Keyboard recorded without errors ,just the ugly efx on voice...
Well thats how it is even if you don't record from what i remember from back when i tried it...
This is NOT overloading of the DSP , it is just not the best algorithms out there
If a keyboard was going to sound exactly like the voicelive series (especially the cheaper ones that have "tc-helicon" vocal efx on board, nobody would buy a real TC...Pa4x is way better, and (i will test it again at some point but i think i remember correctly) previous flagship pa3x has better vocal efx too...
Pa3xle is not a flagship model..It is just an 76keys pa900...
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alfredokiwi
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

musiccankill wrote:
The loops in the video (parts replaying) are of your video right?
Keyboard recorded without errors ,just the ugly efx on voice...
Well thats how it is even if you don't record from what i remember from back when i tried it...
This is NOT overloading of the DSP , it is just not the best algorithms out there
If a keyboard was going to sound exactly like the voicelive series (especially the cheaper ones that have "tc-helicon" vocal efx on board, nobody would buy a real TC...Pa4x is way better, and (i will test it again at some point but i think i remember correctly) previous flagship pa3x has better vocal efx too...
Pa3xle is not a flagship model..It is just an 76keys pa900...


Always I hear the same excuse from Korg experts justifying a product that has no compliance based on quality standards. Unfortunately the processing power on DM3725 is to weak such issues happens after maybe 30 minutes doing recordings I don´t know if such issues are related to overheating on DM3725. But saying that quality is only guaranteed on expensive flagship models is another way for excuses. The only partial good news on flagship models are the software upgrades based on users complains and wish lists because they pay a lot of money for a flagship product.

The complete sequence starts to cut I hear the issue on headphones during recording. Because the DSP is split into 8 units to run processes if a process hangs the rest of the DSP pipeline continues.

This is NOT overloading of the DSP , it is just not the best algorithms out there

What happens here is a internal failure on the DSP core running the code properly. If the factory firmware came with bugs Korg should provide an upgrade on Pa3XLe last firmware is ver 1.10 from jun 2015 three years old. Because the main program continues despite the errors a system hang up is avoided in this case but some user have experienced systems hangups on Pa900, Pa1000 and Pa4X meaning that Korg products are not 100% free of failures.
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Last edited by alfredokiwi on Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:21 pm; edited 3 times in total
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musiccankill
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, you mean that the cutoffs/rollbacks we are hearing (both in style and voice in the video you uploaded) are as it has been recorded from the pa itself and you hear the same cutoffs in the analog outputs too?
At first you talked about bubbling effect/low sound quality only on voice proc and that styles were playing fine.
Can you explain what is really happening?
I am not a korg related person ,more than that not an expert in any way but i design embedded systems (not in big scale but that doesn't matter) and i can understand what is going on..This doesn't seem as an overload and from the calculations/inspection on dsp/cpu load i have done on pa4x,pa600,pa300 and havian 30 (never had a 3xle) i never managed to load the dsp more than 49% (tc-helicon off on 4x and the others doesn't have it)...
Still as i wrote you on another post, pa3xle runs >4 effects less than 4x and >2 effects less than pa700 and none of them have any problem with overloads or anythings like what you describe...
Can you explain how an overloaded dsp (as you say) does so much more heavy work on a newer model (which has the same or almost the same cpu/dsp) with better sounding effects and more effect slots and generally with more features in any possible combination?
Pa700/1000 even have 3 extra effects for the microphone/guitar input when you plug an instrument(guitar/bass/whatever) to run the signal through them...
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alfredokiwi
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To close so everyone can understand Pa3XLe issues I recorded without mic circuit modification at maximum mp3 quality. Notice the artifacts and issues on TC-Helicon technology a sort of ping-pong delay from left to right and the artifacts on the voice harmonizer. This happens when "TC-Helicon is on" like a DM3725 DSP overloading issue with artifacts a total crap the quality.

The backing chord arranging sequence runs flawlessly but on some cases the sequence and audio during recording starts to cut (video above). But in this case only the voice is affected meaning that the mp3 codec is not the issue at all I can hear the voice artifacts on headphones during recording. On some cases during long recordings the arranging sequence and audio starts to freeze I hear that on headphones.



Using a ADC antialiasing filter improves a lot the recording quality but some issues remains.
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musiccankill
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure i can hear something wrong on the last video you posted now...
Yeah the effects are sounding bad but it is what it is, not an overload..The only problem i see is that you have maybe set up the tc-helicon wrong...
I was using tha pa800 tc-helicon (wanna be too) and it sounded almost (if not) the same when the settings were wrong...I didn't liked it so i never used it again...I tried pa3x , it was kinda better but still didn't do it for me so i left it too...Now with the pa4x it is better and the difference is obvious..
I haven't tested the pa700 one but i don't think it will have much of difference from the pa4x...
Pa4x has the extra dsp cause it runs more effects on the main dsp for styles/sounds i believe...
Still you haven't answered me how it is possible that the same dsp that runs 5+ more effects on pa700/1000/4x to get overloaded on pa3xle...
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nitecrawler
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer your question, "no" I have not experienced anything close to what you have going on. The TC Helicon program works as expected. To clarify further, It works better when I sing better; but that is not a problem with "TC Helicon". Cool
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Sam CA
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you really need is NOT a more powerful chip set, but a Vocoder that only uses the lyrics and dynamic of your vocal. Then based on the chords and notes you play, it will spit out harmonies...but again based on the notes, and not your pitch. I would turn up the harmony knob all the way, otherwise your pitch would be slamming against those harmonies. Even if you do use a pitch correction feature, you'll get real bad results.

If it's any consolation, my singing voice is just as bad as yours. Sad
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alfredokiwi
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here an example about a true TC-Helicon DSP engine test after repair the Voicelive Touch a non working unit that cost me only 100 dollars and have fixed.



Despite my poor way of singing the portamento of harmonies up and down in thirds and fifths are 100% accurate on Voicelive Touch following my singing voice without artifacts and voice bubbling that happens on Pa3XLe. At the same time the mp3 recording feature on Pa3XLe is poor unfortunately the only way to export in digital due the lack of digital outputs.

Pa4X use same DM3725 processor and mainboard. I can understand in the case of a good singer that issues are hided because the voice shines without effects but this is not the case exposed what fails on Pa3XLe is the poor DSP implementation via DM3725 chip.

Fortunately I pay for the Pa3XLe only 1500 because of a summer discount rebate of 1000. And for only 100 more for a true TC-Helicon engine to correct DSP design flaws is a nice combo.... Very Happy
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