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Loss of sound on computer
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walthamstowman



Joined: 09 Dec 2018
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:43 pm    Post subject: Loss of sound on computer Reply with quote

Hi,

I've had my X50 for a number of years and always played it directly through speakers or headphones.

Last week I was thinking about doing some home recording and wondered if the X50 would play through my computer (an Advent desktop with Windows 10 and Realtek Audio). I bought a midi lead to connect it and was pleased that it did work.

So on Friday night I optimistically purchased and installed Cubase Elements 10 but I couldn't get any sound from any of the in-built samples. At this point my Korg X50 was still working through the computer. Until now I've never plugged any speakers into my computer (always listening to music and other sounds in mono) but now I decided to plug my speakers into my computer in case this was why Cubase wasn't producing any sound.

What happened next was weird. I stupidly managed to plug my speakers into the input rather than the output socket. I quickly realised what I had done and put them into the right socket but for some reason there was an echo sound through the speakers when I played any Mp3s or music on the internet etc. which was also there when I detached the speakers and just listened through the computer.

I eventually managed to solve this problem (by disabling all sound effects. I think) but when I next checked the Korg it was completely silent through the computer. It still works fine when played directly through speakers but just not via the computer using the midi lead.

I'm absolutely stumped as to why it won't play. In theory, it should still work. It can't be the Cubase installation because it was working after I installed it. Disabling sound effects? Well I've tried to enable them again but this hasn't worked (and nor has it brought back the echo sound).

Can anyone think of any reason why the Korg has suddenly stopped working via the computer?

Let me add two more things. Prior to playing the Korg through the computer I installed what I thought was the Korg X50 USB Midi Driver. Only I now realise I made a mistake and installed the Korg X50 editor instead, not the driver. Nevertheless, despite this, the Korg worked fine through the computer. It's only since it stopped working that I've downloaded the Midi Driver for Windows 10 but this hasn't solved the problem.

Secondly, there was a period in all this when the Korg wasn't being recognized by my computer. I've now solved this and it is showing as "X50" in my network. So it knows it's there.

It's all rather frustrating. I've googled for solutions and tried everything I can but all to no avail. It may be that I just need to buy a new music keyboard but if anyone can give me a simple solution or just a suggestion I'll be very grateful.

Thanks for taking the time to read all this,

David
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voip
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Joined: 27 Nov 2014
Posts: 1992

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Were the speakers that were plugged into the X50 input active speakers i.e. mains or battery powered?

The USB port on the X50 only provides a MIDI over USB connection. There are no audio data transferred via USB. The X50 can act as a MIDI source to trigger Cubase VST instruments, or Cubase can trigger X50 sounds via MIDI. Of course, for all of this to work, the MIDI driver needs to be correctly installed and working. Refer to the instructions that came with the driver files for more information.

To get the X50 audio to pass into the computer will require audio leads to be connected between the X50 main outputs and the Line In on the computer itself, or the Line Ins on an external sound card/audio interface connected to the computer via USB. Can the X50 sounds still be heard correctly through headphones?
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walthamstowman



Joined: 09 Dec 2018
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi voip, thanks for replying I really appreciate it.

To answer your questions, the speakers are mains powered. I can still hear the X50 sounds through the headphones, and through the same speakers I'm using on the computer, when connected directly to the X50.

The real mystery for me is that I did initially get the X50 playing fine "through" the computer when I first plugged in the MIDI cable. Then it suddenly stopped. I can't work out why it stopped. I've tried to recreate all my computer settings from when it did work but to no avail.

I originally bought the X50 when I had Windows XP so the CD of drivers is pretty useless now, as I have Windows 10.

If I can just get the MIDI function working again then I feel might have a chance of getting it working with Cubase but, until then, I've got no chance!

Thanks once again for taking the time to respond.
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voip
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Joined: 27 Nov 2014
Posts: 1992

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some Korg keyboards contain not only a USB MIDI device, but also what is essentially an internal USB soundcard, so when the USB connection is made to a computer, both MIDI and digital audio can be sent between computer and keyboard. The Korg Kronos and Kross are two examples that do both, whilst the Krome and KingKorg are USB MIDI only, as is the X50. The mighty Oasys does neither, only offering access to USB storage devices. There must have been something else connected besides USB in order to get audio into the computer. It should be possible in Device Manager (on a PC) to check what devices come up when the keyboard is connected. Alternatively, USBDeview could be installed to view installed and connected devices:

http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/usb_devices_view.html

The latest Korg MIDI drivers can be downloaded from here (there's a link near the top of the web page):

http://www.korg.com/us/support/download/

Do follow the USB MIDI troubleshooting steps detailed in the manual contained in the driver download package.

.
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walthamstowman



Joined: 09 Dec 2018
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Thanks for sticking with this.

I can assure you that the only connection between the Korg X50 and my computer, when it was playing, was through a single MIDI cable.

What is strange, though, is that I initially downloaded the X50 Editor thinking it was the USB-MIDI driver. That was when it worked although, in theory, without the driver, it shouldn't have done. Is it possible that the Korg was somehow using the Editor to play through the computer?

I've since installed the driver but have tried to recreate the original situation by uninstalling both the driver and Editor and then re-installing just the Editor but it didn't work.

As I recall, the Korg stopped playing after I mistakenly plugged the speaker cable into the Line-In jack rather than the Line-Out jack, although why that should have had any effect on the Korg I can't fathom.

As soon as I realised my mistake about the Editor I installed the latest X50 Korg USB MIDI driver for Windows 10 and it remains installed.

My Device Manager recognizes that there is an X50 plugged in. I nevertheless installed the USBDeview and the result is that there is a green light showing next to the X50: Device Type - Audio, Connected - Yes, Safe to Unplug - Yes, Disabled No, USB Hub - No.

So my computer knows full well that there is a Korg X50 music keyboard attached to it but it just stubbornly refuses to allow it to make a single sound!

Quite infuriating and I've simply run out of ideas.

I've checked the Korg X50 user manual but nothing there seemed to help.

One thing, though, you mentioned the troubleshooting steps detailed in the "manual contained in the driver download package". Where exactly do I find this? I can't seem to locate a driver folder on my computer containing such a manual.
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voip
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. The device type showing as "Audio" was intriguing. However, when a nanoPAD2, which is definitely MIDI only, was plugged into the computer, it too showed up as device type Audio.

The USB MIDI driver manual actually turns up as a link in the Korg USB MIDI driver tools program group in the Windoze Start menu once the drivers have been installed. I'm sure I've seen a separate PDF document somewhere, though....

One thought, was there any synth software installed on the computer, that might have been triggered by the MIDI data from the keyboard?
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walthamstowman



Joined: 09 Dec 2018
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's an interesting question. I haven't installed anything myself but when I look on the Cubase MIDI port setup it says:

Device: Windows MIDI, I/O: Out, Port System Name: Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth and State: Inactive

I don't know where this Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth lives on my computer but I'm wondering if it's causing the problem.

By way of update, I've purchased an audio interface. I've connected it all up to the computer but still no sound from the X50 through the computer speakers. However, when I plug headphones into the interface I can hear the X50 just fine. So again there is some kind of problem whereby the interface is not "communicating" properly with my computer.

At the same time, the interface has resolved at least one problem with Cubase where I now have audio input and output showing and have managed to import and play an Mp3 through Cubase, which I couldn't do before.

Just doing a bit of googling is it possible, do you think, that I need a (new) Windows MIDI synth? Or do I need a driver for the GS Wavetable Synth?
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voip
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's worth having a look at the Cubase Elements user manual, downloadable from the Steinberg website. The file is called something like Cubase_Elements_LE_AI_10_Operation_Manual and there are around 10 pages, starting at page 10, concerned with audio and MIDI setup. The fact the X50 can be heard via headphones into the interface means that the audio is getting into the interface, and the interface in question probably has a direct audio path betwen inputs and headphones, for latency-free monitoring. It's now a case of routing the audio appropriately in software land. The instructions that came with the MIDI and audio interface may also contain useful information. Steinberg have a help facility that registered users can access, if you continue to have issues.

As for the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth, remove it, or inactivate it in the MIDI dialogue boxes in Cubase. It doesn't need to be uninstalled.

An interesting VST synth that could be hosted in Cubase and played using MIDI from the X50 is Arturia Pigments. It has just been released, and the full synth is free to use, without restrictions, until January 10th.

Combining the sounds from different sources should produce some interesting sonic textures.

.
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walthamstowman



Joined: 09 Dec 2018
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Nothing seems to make any sense to me at the moment.

I have emailed Steinberg and received some information back and checked the manual and some online videos and one of the main problems I was having in Cubase has been resolved by the interface in that my inputs and outputs are now all active (although loops and samples still aren't playing). My midi port setup, however, shows both Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth and VirtualMidiSynth#1 (which I installed this evening) as inactive. Not sure if that is causing any of the problems I'm having.

But with the interface issue I'm completely baffled. Obviously, the audio is successfully going into the interface from the X50 but nothing is coming from the interface into the computer via the USB connection. I don't think this is a Cubase issue because I've also got MixPad and that isn't recognising an instrument either. But in any case, shouldn't the sound from the X50 play out my speakers regardless of Cubase or MixPad? I simply cannot fathom why I'm getting nothing.

I also have a USB microphone and as soon as that is plugged into the computer it works, i.e. the sound of my voice comes through the speakers. So, if I want to, I can actually record the X50 in MixPad through the microphone, from the sounds coming from the speakers! But if the USB microphone is working then why isn't any audio sound coming through the computer from the audio interface when I play the Korg? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

What really flummoxes me is that when I try a midi connection using a midi interface that doesn't work either. The (admittedly cheap) midi interface I bought today has two lights, one for Midi In and one for Midi Out but the green light is only on for Midi In. Does that mean the Midi Out is just not working on my X50?

And does that mean I have two separate problems? Firstly my computer not taking audio from the interface and secondly the X50 not sending out a midi signal to the computer?

I'm thinking of giving up with the X50 and buying a new synth keyboard. My X50 is quite old and the LED display has stopped working so I kind of need one anyway but I'll be upset if I do buy a new one and I can't connect that to my computer either.

Like I've said twice already, nothing makes sense to me right now.

I've installed the Arturia Pigments and the keyboard plays fine on the screen but I'm not sure how to get it recognized in Cubase or how it's going to help me. I saw a YT video on disabling the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth which I think I've done but, as it was already inactive in Cubase, that may have been a red herring.

I can't work out if there's a very simple solution that I'm missing or if this is a fundamental issue that can't be resolved. I've looked in all the manuals etc that I can but they all seem to assume that everything will work when plugged in, as I have done.
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walthamstowman



Joined: 09 Dec 2018
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By way of update, I downloaded something called Midi-Ox this morning and going into the MIDI options tab and just clicking a couple of options I finally managed to get some sound out of the X50 through the computer!

I even managed to record some keyboards on MixPad. But for some reason MixPad now keeps saying there is a problem with the recording device. It did this at the start but I thought I solved it by disabling the M-Audio in the recording tab and enabling Realtek HD Audio. Now it just won't record any more. Odd.

None of the rhythm tracks on the X50 are making any sound and the keyboard sounds don't all seem to work (voices for example).

I'm thinking there may be a fundamental issue with the X50 here but what has happened today is encouraging so I might just buy another music keyboard. Perhaps another midi interface might help too. Not sure.

Mind you, I've gone backwards in Cubase. Now I don't get any sound from importing an audio file! Loops and samples still don't make a sound. But in the Midi Port Setup it now recognizes the X50 1 Keyboard as Active as in "In" but the "Out" synths and X50 1 Sound (which appeared when I installed the Midi-Ox) are all Inactive.

This is all way more confusing than I was hoping it would be when I decided to do a little bit of home recording!
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walthamstowman



Joined: 09 Dec 2018
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By way of further update, I've purchased a Samson Carbon 49 USB MIDI Controller. At first nothing. Now, somehow, almost miraculously, I do have a piano keyboard sound (with a slight delay), and this works in MixPad (but not Cubase), but am having great difficulty in assigning any other sounds to it.

The Korg has also sort of been working through MIDI but with three major issues. There is a delay when playing each note (just like the Samson), the sounds don't all match up with the various instruments they are supposed to be and there are no drums/rhythm sections which are there when played normally. Therefore at the moment it's pretty unusable.

I'm still getting all kinds of strange issues. If, however, I can manage to assign a range of instruments to the Samson, and get rid of the delay, then I'm pretty much sorted. It may be that this issue is all to do with the synth sounds on my computer. Although I have VirtualMidiSynth#1 I'm not sure if it's enough.

Every time I make a bit of progress I seem to lose ground again. I'm probably missing something very obvious and simple. Just can't work out what that is!
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voip
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Troubleshooting these issues isn't always an easy process. It's probably worth taking a deep breath and trying to make a bit more sense of it all by spending some time creating a list, or making a block diagram of what you have and, with that in mind, what you want to do with it.

Then consider each of the components in turn. Something along the lines of the list below. It soon becomes apparent how potentially complex the system can become:

Computer, Advent desktop comprising:
Realtek onboard audio chipset
Audio drivers
MIDI drivers
USB ports - several
Software - Cubase Elements, VirtualMidiSynth#1, Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth

External interface - M-Audio xxxx
USB - for Audio and MIDI data
STD MIDI in/out (standard MIDI i.e. the 5-pin din ports)
Audio ins/outs

Keyboard - Samson Graphite 49
USB MIDI out

Keyboard - Korg X-50
USB MIDI in/out
STD MIDI in/out
Audio Main out L/R
Audio Individual out 1,2

It's worth bearing in mind that Cubase will probably by using an ASIO driver, which has lower latency but may prevent the computer's default audio drivers from accessing the internal soundcard. As an example, YouTube and Soundcloud audio will probably not be heard through the computer soundcard when Cubase is running. Note also that making connections via standard MIDI and USB MIDI at the same time, can lead to MIDI loops being formed, causing all sorts of problems.

Some useful links to give food for thought:

https://www.yamahasynth.com/yamaha-synth-rss/understanding-signal-flow-of-vst-routing

https://yamahasynth.com/ask-a-question/how-to-connect-external-audio-interface-and-output-the-audio

The following has some points that might be useful, particularly in the "Answers" section:

https://sound.stackexchange.com/questions/23942/no-output-sound-from-midi-in-cubase

There's also a useful resource here, with a range of setup diagrams, though none probably match exactly what you're trying to do (the links from this page are also useful):

http://www.basic-home-recording-studio.com/setup-diagrams.html

Further reading:

http://www.midkar.com/MidiStudio/Help/Midi_InOut.html

And some background on ASIO:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Stream_Input/Output

It might be worth considering the possibility of using a multichannel hardware mixer, to combine the computer soundcard audio with the X50 audio out, and other sound sources, too. It simplifies the setup requirements for each of the components/modules in the system. One example is the Behringer RX1620. This approach may seem a bit"old school" but works well for many folk.

.
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walthamstowman



Joined: 09 Dec 2018
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Voip,

I greatly appreciate the help you've given me over the last few days.

I've made some breakthroughs over the last 24 hours and I think I'm now in a position where I can start recording, albeit in MixPad rather than Cubase which I still haven't quite conquered.

Having acquired a new audio/midi interface (Roland Rubix 22), and using Kontakt 5 sound library software which came with the Samson midi controller (and subsequently Ableton Live 10 Lite which came with the Roland), I've finally managed to get my Korg X50 playing through the computer in exactly the same way as the midi controller. It took quite a bit of tweaking of various settings but I've finally got there. I hadn't realised the importance of the sound libraries. I thought I would be able to just plug in and play. But I now see that one has to assign an instrument through the computer which can then be played through the keyboard.

That's all fine but it does mean that the X50 is now nothing more than a blank keyboard (i.e. midi controller).

I must say that I was expecting to be able to play (and record) my X50 through the computer as I did through normal speakers/headphones. Was I completely wrong about this?

Ideally, when recording tracks, I'd like to be able to use the pre-programmed rhythm tracks within the X50 and perhaps some of the X50 sounds. Is that even possible?

I'm thinking perhaps I need to use the X50 editor for this? Thing is, when I open it up it says "X50 Hardware is not found. Rescan whole all (sic) MIDI devices". No sound is played. When I do rescan, it doesn't seem to find the X50 despite it showing as a device on my computer and I've also tried using, at the same time, an IRIgMIDI2 midi interface plugged into the MIDI holes of the X50, and connected to the USB of the computer, which works with the sound libraries. Any thoughts on how to get the X50 editor working? And would this enable me to play all the rhythm sections?

I have looked at the manual but it's all a bit beyond me. Do you think the fact that the X50 editor is only designed for Windows XP might be causing a problem here? I have Windows 10.

Regarding Cubase, now that I've set up the Roland Rubix 22, all the settings look right. I can see there is a midi signal being received but I just have no sound (even for audio files, which I did have once before). I must be very close to it, probably just one more tweak of settings, although I'm not so bothered now that MixPad is working and I'm not going to have time to learn both. Weirdly, the last time I closed Cubase it told me "X50 1 KEYBOARDS: The driver is not enabled". It does make me wonder if there is a problem with the X50 driver for Windows 10 and if this is causing all or most of the problems I've been having.

A fair amount of the difficulty has probably been my own stupidity and lack of knowledge (and I've probably bought 2 or 3 more items of hardware than I really needed) but one thing that has amazed me in this process is how a very little thing can cause big problems. And it's not just me because I've seen from various forums that other people have had exactly the same problems I've been having. Just today, for example, having installed the new interface my default sound settings were changed in my computer, causing no sound to be played through the speakers, and it was only when going to check on it that I realised what was happening. There are so many things like that which leave one scratching one's head.

It's not a simple process by any means, at least it hasn't been for me. But, like I say, I'm pretty much there now. At least I can start recording and learning how to use MixPad properly. Thanks for all the time you've given me Aoip. If you are able to answer my latest questions that would be great but if not, don't worry too much about it!
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walthamstowman



Joined: 09 Dec 2018
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to add that it turns out that I don't really even need to use any of the interfaces because it seems I can connect from the X50, as a midi controller, direct through the USB lead. I'm not entirely sure but I suspect I'm not using the X50 driver to achieve this.

The one thing I decided in the end not to do, after I found that the Samson midi controller did the job, was buy a new synth keyboard so I don't know for sure if there is an issue with the Korg (and the driver) or if the problem is with my computer. Perhaps I will buy a new one in future but for now I probably have what I need.

If, incidentally, there is a more modern version of the X50 in a reasonable price range please let me know because I've always liked the sounds and rhythms etc.
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voip
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to hear that progress has been made.

Regarding the X50's rhythm tracks, I presume that these are mostly drum tracks, and played using the X50 arpeggiator. The convention is normally to assign drums to MIDI channel 10, so if a percussion instrument is set up in whichever VST software is being used, and assigned to MIDI channel 10, then hopefully that will meet with success. Using MIDI-OX to display the MIDI traffic from the X50 whilst the rhythm is being played, should let you know if MIDI data are being sent by the rhythm, whilst it's playing, and the MIDI channel(s) being used. Looking through the X50 manual, some Combis use other MIDI channels e.g. channel 2 for the arpeggiators.

Windows has a few quirks, regarding MIDI. One of them is that it can only enumerate a maximum of 10 installed MIDI device drivers. The second, is that each USB port is treated separately. So, if the Samson Graphite has been plugged into two different USB ports, that would effectively count as two MIDI device driver installations. With the X50, Samson Graphite, M-Audio, and Rubix 22 being plugged in and out, the 10 MIDI device limit could easily be reached. The device drivers may install, and be visible in DeviceManager or USBDeview, but software will not be able to see them. The Korg MIDI driver installation comes with a utility to help manage this 10 device limit, and remove unwanted MIDI drivers. Don't worry, the drivers will reinstall when necessary.

To get external audio from the X50 into Cubase requires two audio cables from the X50 L and R main outs to the Rubix or M-Audio interface. An audio track needs to be created in Cubase, and the audio routing set appropriately. This requires the setting up in the software of two buses and then making the software connections to the audio device, for the input, and similarly for the output. The Cubase user manual should have more details.

Head scratching, indeed, but worth the effort in the end.

PS You can never have too much gear!! ;-)

.
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