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MIDI Programming Help - Connect two keyboards?

 
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MuratE
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Joined: 25 Jan 2012
Posts: 91
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 8:20 am    Post subject: MIDI Programming Help - Connect two keyboards? Reply with quote

Hello,

I was wondering if you could help me please? I would like to connect two keyboards using MIDI cables (no computer involved). I would like my Yamaha Genos to control the Korg Pa3x76. Some of the things I would like to do is:

- When I transpose in Genos the Korg should transpose automatically.
- I'd like to be able to play any part of sounds on either keyboard or both.
- I'd like to be able to play a style from either keyboard (but only pressing the keys on the Genos, as the controller keyboard)

I bought 2no MIDI cables but I really don't know how to set it up, I don't know anything about MIDI programming.

I tried to search online and youtube, but I couldn't find anything specific to help me.

Would you be able to suggest a website where I can read and learn, or is it something easy to setup?

Thank you

Murat
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karmathanever
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Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 9409
Location: Australia (Oz !!)

PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Murat

Here are some links:-

https://www.midi.org/articles-old/tutorials
https://blog.discmakers.com/2015/03/midi-faq-for-beginners/
https://musicianshq.com/a-beginners-guide-to-midi/
There are many more however it is essential that you learn the MIDI concepts first before connecting keyboards - you'll end up too frustrated.
Quote:
- When I transpose in Genos the Korg should transpose automatically.

Yes but subject to setting the MIDI parameters on both keyboards so you also need to understand the MIDI implementation of both keyboards (MANUALS!!!)
Quote:
- I'd like to be able to play any part of sounds on either keyboard or both.

Yes - you will use one keyboard as a partial "MIDI controller" e.g playing a style on the Genos but playing a sound (right-hand) from PA4X
Also requires MIDI channel set up on both keyboards - again, a full appreciation of how MIDI is implemented on both keyboards.
Quote:
- I'd like to be able to play a style from either keyboard (but only pressing the keys on the Genos, as the controller keyboard)

Impracticle and very messy - probably will never work the way I think you are wanting - the PA4X and Genos have 2 VERY different architectures.
Playing the Genos style and pressing INTRO/FILL/VAR buttons will never activate those elements on the PA4X and visa versa

So, in summary:-
1. Learn the concepts of MIDI
2. Learn (or at least understand) how to change/configure MIDI on both keyboards

Do some study and get back to us if you have questions.

Pete Very Happy
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MuratE
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Joined: 25 Jan 2012
Posts: 91
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pete,

Thank you for all your advice and the valuable information you provided.
All duly noted – I will do some homework, study and come back with my questions/results.

Have a great day!

Murat Smile
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Korghelper
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Joined: 26 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, current arranger manufacturers make next to no effort to ease hooking two arrangers up together and working as one. Sure, two from the same manufacturer will often operate decently well together, but that's not the point, is it?!

Firstly are the codes for Intros, Variations, Fills and Endings. Completely different between all arrangers.

Secondly, codes for Accelerando and decellerando. Nope. Got to clock one with the other. Best of luck swapping what's master in the middle of a song!

Compatible codes for transpose? Nope. Compatible codes for Bass Inv.? Nope. Compatible codes for Breaks? Nope.

Best of luck using the sliders or buttons on one arranger to control the other.

And so on, so forth, etc., etc..

The saddest thing about the whole problem is, a simple update fixes everything. User definable MIDI output codes for all buttons and sliders fixes darn near everything. Been asking for this for decades. Still not implemented.

Hard to believe that supposed businessmen can't see the advantage to sales by allowing multiple arrangers to work together... MIDI, which allowed multiple synths to work together exploded the keyboard market in the 80's. But arranger development teams seem utterly determined to make sure each arranger is an island to itself. If the major arranger manufacturers would only standardize their codes or allow user definable codes, Korg would be more likely to sell an arranger to a Yamaha owner. Or Yamaha to a Korg owner. Or Ketron to either!

Sure, yes, you can find kludgy workarounds to a lot of the problems (often involving a tablet or computer as an intermediary to convert the codes) but c'mon guys! Why, when MIDI would do the job already perfectly well without any need for new protocols, do you work so hard to make sure nothing hooks up well? Rolling Eyes It's kinda like if each manufacturer used different codes for notes, or controllers, or pitch bend, and nothing hooked up right!

In 30 years of MIDI arrangers, the main manufacturers have NEVER got together to standardize the arranger codes. Isn't 30 years enough? Confused
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Buzzmcm



Joined: 17 May 2020
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 2:34 pm    Post subject: midi codes Reply with quote

Hi, I'm a newbie to Korg and this forum but generally comfortable with midi programming in other settings.

I was interested in the recent post from KORGHELPER regarding midi codes.

Having connected a midi piano to an EK50 using an interspersed tablet running MIDI-OX, I am interested in discovering the control code details to send to the EK50 that will allow further control via midi if possible. The midi implementation chart shows it recognises sysex messages. Can anyone help to direct me to this information.
Thanks
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Bill1983
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Joined: 06 Nov 2017
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Korghelper wrote:
Unfortunately, current arranger manufacturers make next to no effort to ease hooking two arrangers up together and working as one. Sure, two from the same manufacturer will often operate decently well together, but that's not the point, is it?!

Firstly are the codes for Intros, Variations, Fills and Endings. Completely different between all arrangers.

Secondly, codes for Accelerando and decellerando. Nope. Got to clock one with the other. Best of luck swapping what's master in the middle of a song!

Compatible codes for transpose? Nope. Compatible codes for Bass Inv.? Nope. Compatible codes for Breaks? Nope.

Best of luck using the sliders or buttons on one arranger to control the other.

And so on, so forth, etc., etc..

The saddest thing about the whole problem is, a simple update fixes everything. User definable MIDI output codes for all buttons and sliders fixes darn near everything. Been asking for this for decades. Still not implemented.

Hard to believe that supposed businessmen can't see the advantage to sales by allowing multiple arrangers to work together... MIDI, which allowed multiple synths to work together exploded the keyboard market in the 80's. But arranger development teams seem utterly determined to make sure each arranger is an island to itself. If the major arranger manufacturers would only standardize their codes or allow user definable codes, Korg would be more likely to sell an arranger to a Yamaha owner. Or Yamaha to a Korg owner. Or Ketron to either!

Sure, yes, you can find kludgy workarounds to a lot of the problems (often involving a tablet or computer as an intermediary to convert the codes) but c'mon guys! Why, when MIDI would do the job already perfectly well without any need for new protocols, do you work so hard to make sure nothing hooks up well? Rolling Eyes It's kinda like if each manufacturer used different codes for notes, or controllers, or pitch bend, and nothing hooked up right!

In 30 years of MIDI arrangers, the main manufacturers have NEVER got together to standardize the arranger codes. Isn't 30 years enough? Confused


It may be worth looking into a "Midi Sloutions Event Manager Plus, $125 USD" . It will allow you to transform ANY Midi message coming from the Genos, or the Korg, to the necessary Midi CC or PC required by the other Keyboard. This is a complete solution however, it will require A LOT of Homework as what you want to do is not trivial. With effort and time, you should be able to do anything you can imagine, as well as a lot you cannot.

Good luck and SSSD (Stay Safe & Stay Distant),
Bill
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Korghelper
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Joined: 26 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is that the master arranger has to send a code for the function in the first place, and from the front panel button that controls that function.

And a considerable number of basic functions simply don’t do that.

Not to mention, obviously having to haul a laptop around to do the translation is a huge faff.

The problem is far easier solved by the arranger’s OS simply allowing you to map any button/slider/screen element to any MIDI code you want to send.

Yes, a certain degree of the issue can be worked around, but not all, and at a huge added cost of equipment and effort. A system based on the OS allowing setups to be saved and shared would make external control of just about any common gear as easy as downloading a preset.

If running two arrangers in tandem were as easy as this, who honestly WOULDN’T seriously consider adding a secondary arranger or arranger module to their rig for a totally different set of sounds and capabilities? The strengths of each, combined in one easy to use package...

Nirvana!
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deyko



Joined: 22 Sep 2020
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you have any issues with your code you can try to ask help from support teams of web app development companies, i think they can help. For example: https://scand.com/services/web-application-development/
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maryna_b



Joined: 05 Jul 2021
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deyko wrote:
if you have any issues with your code you can try to ask help from support teams of web app development companies, i think they can help. For example: https://scand.com/services/web-application-development


In case you need to find web application development services, I recommend this page: https://www.cleveroad.com/services/web-application-development-services
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Korghelper
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Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 539

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It still boils down to whether the master keyboard sends any message at all for an internal function… Without that, you are boned!

Yes, you can hook two arrangers up to a laptop or tablet, and control BOTH from that, but the ergonomics of controlling the song from a laptop or tablet while you still play on the keyboard is challenging, to say the least. There’s a REASON all the buttons are where they are… style control buttons (fills, variations, start stop, breaks etc.) are all on the left hand side, close to the hand that is playing the chords. There’s a REASON the sound selection, splits, and other functions your right hand needs are close to the right side. Operating an arranger all while playing requires the minimum of travel distance from the keyboard to the button you need and back to the keyboard.

A laptop or tablet destroys all of that ease of motion.

As far as I am concerned, the only PRACTICAL solution can come from the arranger makers themselves, and a decision to work cooperatively with each other to ensure that EVERY function has an associated midi command, and that EVERY button, slider and touch screen element can be programmed to send any midi command you want.

On that day, hooking up a Genos to a PA4X or a Ketron Audya5 to a PA1000 etc. will be as easy as it was that day in 1982 when a Jupiter-6 was hooked up to a Sequential Circuits Prophet 600 and it worked! That we are here in 2021, nearly 40 years later (God, how the time flies!) and we still can’t hook one arranger to another and that work fully together is the eternal shame of the arranger manufacturers,

For shame, gentlemen. For shame…. 😡😳😔
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Nemik
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd like to be able to play any part of sounds on either keyboard or both.

Is easy, you need to do sync midi IN/OUT channels, means on Master Keyboard sending Midi notes must be on same channels which Slave keyboard receiving.
I don't know much about Genos setup, but in Korg is easy, very user friendly settings.
Quote:
I'd like to be able to play a style from either keyboard (but only pressing the keys on the Genos, as the controller keyboard)

To do this, on Korg receiving Midi channel must be set to Global, means external keyboard taking over full range of keys.
Quote:
When I transpose in Genos the Korg should transpose automatically.

This one is tricky, but in Korg possible, not sure about Genos.
Korg flagships, PA3x, Pa4x can sync perfectly Traspose with Korg Kronos without any problems.
Between Genos and Korg can be difficult.
Transpose Midi message is via SySex and have to be very precisely configured .
Best way to find out what SySex message is required, connect Korg to PC via USB and check on software MIDI-OX.
http://www.midiox.com/
then connect Genos and check what SySex if any, is sending when you transpose.
Then you can compare and if they much is Okay, if not you can use Midi translator software Bome MIDI Translator Pro.
https://www.bome.com/products/miditranslator#overview
Make sure Genos sending SySex and Korg receiving by testing using MIDI-OX before you invest for Bome software.

For record, is my only suggestion, not base on experience, I never try to do this, I never need it, just trying give you a tip.
Wink
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Rob Sherratt
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Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It may be worth looking into a "Midi Sloutions Event Manager Plus, $125 USD" . It will allow you to transform ANY Midi message coming from the Genos, or the Korg, to the necessary Midi CC or PC required by the other Keyboard. This is a complete solution however, it will require A LOT of Homework as what you want to do is not trivial. With effort and time, you should be able to do anything you can imagine, as well as a lot you cannot.


Also try MidiOx which was mentioned in an earlier post. It is free and has amazing MIDI mapping capabilities.
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FillSmith



Joined: 22 Sep 2021
Posts: 2
Location: New Delhi, India

PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx a lot! I was searching similar issue with my keyboards. play crazy time live
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