Korg Forums Forum Index Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Pa4x Drawbar Section
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Pa4X
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mintjamman
Platinum Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2015
Posts: 645
Location: London, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:35 pm    Post subject: Pa4x Drawbar Section Reply with quote

For the last few months I have been totally bugged by the Organ Drawbar revision Korg have given us in Version 3. Although the new GUI is a improvement the sound has in my opinion been compromised.

Firstly the last three drawbars do not sound as they should, 1/ 3/5 - 1 1/3 - and 1" are weak and the crosstalk is excessive and when mixed with the 16ft, - 5/1/3 - and 8"

The drawbar section lacks body and has no balls, and the harmonic percussion levels of loud and soft are wrong. The fact Korg have in the update taken away the Adjustable Percussion level was a mistake as you are now stuck with the preset levels.

Of course all of these observations are based on my previous experience of the Pa4x Ver 2 and before and additionally having real Hammonds and other clones available to compare with. This might not interest some here but for organ players who have ears I wonder how many have noticed the changes ??

Its hard to imagine a poorer effort on the part of whoever decided to change things but for me its not working at all. I have a lot of organ patches programmed and have them stored in Songbook and setlist and working with the same data in a band situation I noticed straight away something had changed, it had changed so much that I have had to tweak everything to try and get the sound sorted as it was but no amount of tweaking will produce the organ sounds I had under Version 2.1

I have messaged Korg about this but they have not responded and my interaction with Korg UK Product Specialists indicate that they have not noticed any of the missing detail due to not being organ players.

I am seriously thinking about going back to Ver 2.1 as the organ section is important for me, so a big step back with Ver 3 in the organ department and its hard to think that Korg cannot produce a far better effort in a flagship product in the tonewheel and control section of their drawbar model.
_________________
Yamaha S90ES, Korg Triton Pro, EXB Moss, Roland XV5080, Korg EX8000, Korg Pa4x 76, Korg Kronos 88, Crumar MOJO, Logic Pro X, V Collection, Novation SL61,Vienna, Korg Pa4x , EC-5, Vienna, Arturia V Collection, Roland SC88 Pro, Roland D110, Alesis SR16, Alesis D4
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bernie9
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 356
Location: Port Charlotte,FL

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the post,as I was thinking of going to ver 3. I think now I will hold off.
Bernie
_________________
pa4x
Audya 76
Yamaha S970
Hammond SK1
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mintjamman
Platinum Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2015
Posts: 645
Location: London, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sure that the enhancements in Ver 3 are worthwhile but if organ is important you might find as I have done you cant live with this updated organ section i.e Drawbar Section.
_________________
Yamaha S90ES, Korg Triton Pro, EXB Moss, Roland XV5080, Korg EX8000, Korg Pa4x 76, Korg Kronos 88, Crumar MOJO, Logic Pro X, V Collection, Novation SL61,Vienna, Korg Pa4x , EC-5, Vienna, Arturia V Collection, Roland SC88 Pro, Roland D110, Alesis SR16, Alesis D4
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
karmathanever
Platinum Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 8705
Location: Australia (Oz !!)

PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting.

IMO Korg arrangers' DRAWBAR/LESLIE (DB-L) emulations has never been impressive and particularly compared to other keyboard brands. The earlier Tyros DB-L was quite nice - the Genos is not so good - Rolands are great (VR09 superb).

Korg PA3X suddenly came good and the PA4X even better - the DB-L emulation is now quite acceptable.

The PA4X V3 is the best so far. I reverted to V2 recently mainly to see if the OS downgrade worked OK - I could not believe the DB-L difference - I am so glad to be back on OS V3 now. Attention to detail with DB-L should be improved IMHO. Things like the "1'" should not be heard if the harmonic percussion is on.

However, I am quite ok with PA4X-V3 DB-L - a DB-L dedicated reverb/distortion controls would be great particularly when playing with styles.

When all said and done, I absolutely love this keyboard.

Pete Very Happy
_________________
------------------------------------------------------------------
Korg:--- PA4X-76, Kronos-61, WaveDrum Global
Roland:---- Integra-7
Premier:--- Mid 90's Genista
------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chelsea4023
Full Member


Joined: 06 Apr 2016
Posts: 244
Location: West London, U.K.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
It's always been a let down for me regarding organ sounds on arrangers. Korg and Yamaha probably make the best arrangers but neither have a great set of organ sounds. I ended up buying a Viscount Legend Live organ that I use with my PA4X. Even the leslie sim on the Viscount is miles ahead of the PA4X.
I find it strange that companies like Native Instruments can sell an authentic software Hammond clone + other organs (Vintage Organs) for 99 euros yet on a 3,000+ euros arranger keyboard from both Yamaha and Korg that quality of organ sound is not achievable.
Never mind, I'll soldier on with my PA4X and maybe one day !!
Chris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Korghelper
Full Member


Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arrangers are mostly cannibalized from other products a manufacturer makes. If a manufacturer doesn’t make a great Hammond clone, the odds of them putting one in their arranger are pretty much zero. If they don’t make a great VH unit (Yamaha, anyone?!) the one in their arranger is likely to suck unless they do what Korg does and license one from a different company.

Korg, IMHO, have never made a decent B3 clone. Particularly the Leslie sim. I’ve used both original and newer CX-3’s, and they were pretty ghastly until you put them into a real Leslie.

I think Korg’s only hope is to license the Ventilator code, or one of the better software Leslie’s. Despite years of trying, it appears they simply don’t have it in them to get a Leslie right. If their liaison with TC should have taught them anything, it is to know when to go outside the fold if in house cannot come up with the goods!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
D575
Platinum Member


Joined: 05 Aug 2013
Posts: 563
Location: UK (Dorset)

PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://youtu.be/lg8VWhdxlPs https://www.viscountinstruments.com/legend-263.html Although both links here are no remedy for the initial observations at the start of this thread... I nevertheless am intrigued with how well they could integrate with PA4X from the 1st link as a enhancement or the 2nd link as an compact alternative which has already received good review in its larger format ?....
_________________
Korg PA4X-76 : Roland Jupiter-80 : Yamaha Montage-7 : Roland Integra-7 : Waldorf String Synth : Drawmer 1973 Multi-Band Compressor : Kush Audio Clariphonic EQ : Munro Sonic Egg-150 Monitors Mk2 : Focusrite Dual ISA Preamp : SPL Tube Vitalizer : Tascam DA-3000 : Lexicon Processor : Allen & Heath Zed-420 : TC Clarity-M : RME Babyface Pro + (iFi Audio USB iPurifier 3) : Behringer X-Touch ONE : Advanced Balanced Mains Power Supply : iFi AC iPurifer (x5) : Multiple RA-Fillters : Sonarworks Ref-4 : (((((Soundtheory Gullfoss))))) : (((((A@424.4hz)))))
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mintjamman
Platinum Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2015
Posts: 645
Location: London, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Things like the "1'" should not be heard if the harmonic percussion is on.

Exactly right but I can live with that but the drawbar modifications need revisiting by Korg and the Harmonic Percussion level re-introducing.

I agree that the likes of NI B3 organs is light years ahead of Korg but that needs far more processing power than we have under the hood of the Pa4x.
Maybe I will just start using my Mac Book Pro with NI B3 and my ventilator and forget about the onboard organ section of the Pa4x

Korg need to listen to what its user base need
_________________
Yamaha S90ES, Korg Triton Pro, EXB Moss, Roland XV5080, Korg EX8000, Korg Pa4x 76, Korg Kronos 88, Crumar MOJO, Logic Pro X, V Collection, Novation SL61,Vienna, Korg Pa4x , EC-5, Vienna, Arturia V Collection, Roland SC88 Pro, Roland D110, Alesis SR16, Alesis D4
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Biggles
Platinum Member


Joined: 31 Aug 2017
Posts: 550

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see you are in London.

Are you aware that the next Korg Webinar is with Pete Shaw on Drawbars.

It would be interesting if you or another posted your observations for comment by Pete and Adam who are bother Korg UK staffers.
_________________
Biggles
PA700, Kross 2
Lancashire, UK.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Korghelper
Full Member


Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know it's not the answer, but with reference to the 1' drawbar not muting when percussion is engaged, perhaps try using different programs, one with the 1' d'bar out, and another with it in and percussion engaged?

It's a PITA, but it DOES at least sound correct..!

BTW, with reference to NI B3 sims etc, maybe there's not enough horsepower to run the entire sim, but maybe there's enough to run just the Leslie? It's amazing what a great Leslie sound will do to a less than stellar organ.

EDIT... mind you, I remember running NI B4 on an old Starmax 603 clone and a 2001 Quicksilver and don’t remember ever choking them. B4 was a particularly low cpu hit plug-in...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
worth
Platinum Member


Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 941

PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did anyone see the webinar and what was their opinion on the detailed organ demonstration ?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jonyblues
Full Member


Joined: 01 Dec 2015
Posts: 132
Location: San Diego, California

PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a keen user of organ sounds, I’d 100% agree that the internal organ sounds and the Leslie sim are pretty poor. Subsequently, I’ve been using the hx3 module and its partner drawbar controller for all of my organ sounds. I haven’t compared it first hand with the viscount module (which is cheaper because it has the drawbars built into the sound module, rather than having them separate) but based on every recording I’ve heard, the hx3 module is definitely one of the best Organ sims out there . All I can say, though, is that a decent organ sound massively enhances the pa4x across practically every genre.

I personally think that if Korg don’t want to spend lots of time and money developing their own organ sounds and decent Leslie effect, they should simply insert the hx3 chip/card into their keyboards, which would give them arguably the best/most authentic organ sound (and excellent Leslie effect) in the current market. I believe bohm keyboards and others have done exactly that!

For those wondering about the benefits of using a Lester k (which massively improves even the studiologic Numa organ sounds, as they have an awful Leslie sim too) or, even better, a neo vent, the core problem (from memory and I may be mistaken) is that the internal pa4x organ sound can’t be sent out separately of the audio 1 or 2), which means that all of the pa4x sounds get ‘leslified’ (new word 😉).

Finally, the other main problem when using an external organ module is that when you feed the sound back into the kbd via the line in socket, it disables the microphone input (FYI, as you probably already know, you can only use one input at a time, line OR Mic, which is a real pain!). Hope this helps the discussion a little. Best, Jon
_________________
Korg PA4x, HX3 (B3 Sim module), Korg PA3x, Korg i2, Korg i40m, Roland AX-7, Roland FC300.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
D575
Platinum Member


Joined: 05 Aug 2013
Posts: 563
Location: UK (Dorset)

PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also worth looking at as a sound module perhaps https://youtu.be/8rDH_YzqH5k would be interesting to experiment with the Lester-K (if needed ?) And the Reface YC together... BUT still anoying as this just means more gear to carry and set up live which make the observations from the start of this thread more valid.... I did see the recent organ webinar where the original question from this thread did seam to get brushed off by the hosts of the programme... but I guess you would expect them to defend the faith Smile
_________________
Korg PA4X-76 : Roland Jupiter-80 : Yamaha Montage-7 : Roland Integra-7 : Waldorf String Synth : Drawmer 1973 Multi-Band Compressor : Kush Audio Clariphonic EQ : Munro Sonic Egg-150 Monitors Mk2 : Focusrite Dual ISA Preamp : SPL Tube Vitalizer : Tascam DA-3000 : Lexicon Processor : Allen & Heath Zed-420 : TC Clarity-M : RME Babyface Pro + (iFi Audio USB iPurifier 3) : Behringer X-Touch ONE : Advanced Balanced Mains Power Supply : iFi AC iPurifer (x5) : Multiple RA-Fillters : Sonarworks Ref-4 : (((((Soundtheory Gullfoss))))) : (((((A@424.4hz)))))


Last edited by D575 on Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Biggles
Platinum Member


Joined: 31 Aug 2017
Posts: 550

PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you think you have a problem with the new Drawbar system you need to watch the Korg webinar.

On the 22nd August the webinar was all about the use of Drawbars and the question of reduced functions was raised.

The response was basically there are changes and we will pass on to Korg Italy the points raised but the update has improved the functions available by a considerably greater degree.

Another reason to watch the webinar is to see and hear Pete Shaw’s playing.

See the webinar via https://korgworld.co.uk/
_________________
Biggles
PA700, Kross 2
Lancashire, UK.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
D575
Platinum Member


Joined: 05 Aug 2013
Posts: 563
Location: UK (Dorset)

PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Pete Shaw is a great asset and fine musician... I did meet him once in Torquay to see the PA4X just before it was released nice chap.
_________________
Korg PA4X-76 : Roland Jupiter-80 : Yamaha Montage-7 : Roland Integra-7 : Waldorf String Synth : Drawmer 1973 Multi-Band Compressor : Kush Audio Clariphonic EQ : Munro Sonic Egg-150 Monitors Mk2 : Focusrite Dual ISA Preamp : SPL Tube Vitalizer : Tascam DA-3000 : Lexicon Processor : Allen & Heath Zed-420 : TC Clarity-M : RME Babyface Pro + (iFi Audio USB iPurifier 3) : Behringer X-Touch ONE : Advanced Balanced Mains Power Supply : iFi AC iPurifer (x5) : Multiple RA-Fillters : Sonarworks Ref-4 : (((((Soundtheory Gullfoss))))) : (((((A@424.4hz)))))
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Pa4X All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group