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karmathanever
Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10398
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 Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I hope OS NEXT is Korg realizing they finally absolutely HAVE to use the Kronos engines for the next arranger model and they just bought some time so they can get on with it! |
Seriously? With a $8,000 price tag? A Kronos arranger? Can you imagine the OS complexity?
I'd rather stay with one of each.
All Yamaha have done is copied some Korg features into a Tyros and renamed it - still a home keyboard (which is fine for their market) - I tried hard to configure mine into a professionally useable box - didn't work at all for many reasons.
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Biggles
Platinum Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2017
Posts: 1006
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| Aripearlmusic wrote: | | Yamaha doesnt make any professional arranger workstations period. None of their arranger machines have a 3 band EQ on each channel and gain control and they just cut 90% of their midi event editor. They are not competition with anyone because they make no effort on the bare minimum mandatory features and time saving utility. Its basically a pig in a fancy looking knockoff dress. |
You are right yet oh so wrong.
Yamaha are THE major player in the market.
As for Arrangers someone who has grown up on Yamaha keyboards will move up within the brand.
Yamaha have saturated the low end Beginner Market with a whole plethora of keyboards to get players basically locked into their brand.
Parents are more likely to buy a $100 keyboard for their kid rather than a $500 Korg, then if the kid shows lasting enthusiasm then they will move up within the Yamaha range because Mum and Dad know not better.
On another forum I have suggested many times to Yamaha owners looking for a new keyboard to go to a music store and play as many makes as they can, but they still in over 90% buy a Yamaha despite the keyboard being inferior to the respective Korg.
The user demand for the Genos is huge and enthusiasm for it is off the scale so despite its limitations it is a game changer and cannot be dismissed lightly, which is an action that I am sure Korg will be well aware of.
Lets be honest with ourselves a move from a Yamaha to a Korg does require a quantum leap due entirely to the vastly difference operating systems. I am presently helping someone transition from a Tyros to a PA and its a huge change for them and a badly written Korg manual is not helping, its not what is written, it is how its written and what is not.
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Biggles
Lancashire, UK |
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Aripearlmusic
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Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Posts: 342
Location: BROOKLYN NY
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Again i said yamaha doesnt make any Professional arranger workstations because they dont feel the need to include a 3 band EQ and Gain control on every channel which is 100% mandatory for mixing[/u]
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Ari Pearl Music
@AriPearlMusic |
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Biggles
Platinum Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2017
Posts: 1006
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Aripearlmusic wrote: | | Again i said yamaha doesnt make any Professional arranger workstations because they dont feel the need to include a 3 band EQ and Gain control on every channel which is 100% mandatory for mixing[/u] |
That bit I agree
But you also said.......
They are not competition with anyone because they make no effort on the bare minimum mandatory features and time saving utility. Its basically a pig in a fancy looking knockoff
Now it is with that comment that I do not agree.
I do not like Yamaha, but fair do’s they have a very loyal following and produce keyboards that continue to sell.
Who cares that they are not what you seem to see as Pro Level, I am pretty sure the folks that take them around and gig with them would argue against that throw away comment.
I would not say knockoff as you put it, to me its more ripoff, here in the UK a Genos is £600 more than a PA4X, I know which I would choose day in day out and exactly what I would do with the £600 saved.
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Biggles
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Aripearlmusic
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Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Posts: 342
Location: BROOKLYN NY
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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A 3 band EQ, gain control, and a proper midi event editor is the bare minimum for creating styles because that and being able to choose the sounds you want is basically all you need to create a style. As far as knockoff vs rip off the difference is the effort put into cosmetic appearance vs actual durability of the shell. The large amount of Yamaha machines that ive seen with holes in them because of the cheap flimsy plastic shell vs korg's metal casing that simply doesn't have that issue..... It's not my opinion that a 3 band EQ and gain control is mandatory for mixing it's a fact that every audio engineer will agree with.
If you can record a style but cant edit it because the event editor is missing basically everything and cant mix it because it doesnt have the basics its a complete waste of time
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Ari Pearl Music
@AriPearlMusic |
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Musicwithharry
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Posts: 694
Location: Anamosa, IA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Aripearlmusic wrote: | | Again i said yamaha doesnt make any Professional arranger workstations because they dont feel the need to include a 3 band EQ and Gain control on every channel which is 100% mandatory for mixing[/u] |
According to my research, the Genos has EQ on each channel. Each part has a 2 band EQ, which is probably more than fine for most people. The Genos also has an 8-band Master EQ that, of course, will affect the entire keyboard.
This feature has also been ported down to the new PSR-SX series so it sounds like, by and large, the new PSR-SX series will have the same, or similar, efx blocks that the Genos has.
I think that the Genos is a great looking instrument and I also feel the same way about the upcoming PSR-SX series. They look nice and there is a streamlined layout/look and I love the color scheme that the screen displays. It is visually grabbing to me.
With the above said, I am a Korg owner and LOVE my PA700. I believe that there is much more functionality with the Korg PA series than anything else on the market.
Grace,
Harry
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Alesis Vortex Keytar, Alesis QS6.2, Alesis QSR, Alesis SR-16, Behringer Deepmind-12, Ensoniq Avista 7600, Ensoniq VFX, Ensoniq VFX-SD, Ensoniq SQ1+, (2) Ensoniq SQ-R+/32, Korg i3 (2020 Version), (2) Korg Kross 1-61, (2) Korg Kross 1-88, Korg Minilogue XD, Korg Minilogue XD Module, Korg M50-61, Korg PA700, Korg X5DR, Korg Z3, Kurzweil SP1, Lowrey EZP3 (bascially a Kawai), Roland D-05, Roland E-09, Waldorf Streichfett, Yamaha Reface CP, Yamaha Reface CS, Yamaha Reface DX, Yamaha Reface YC |
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Aripearlmusic
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Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Posts: 342
Location: BROOKLYN NY
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry but you need to learn mixing because even a sweepable 2 band EQ is only enough for a properly mixed master to adjust for the difference in sound in speaker models and sizes and their frequency response. Yamaha sounds themselves are not mixed and actually need a 4 band EQ because of the boosted sub bass in every sound, complete lack of lows, boosted highs, and the wrong mids frequencies used in every sound. If you have no gain control you cannot gain stage the mix. Sampling is waste of time if you also can't properly EQ each layer on the machine itself or in the YEM to adjust it for the sound difference. Thats besides every looped sound having a distinctly audible looping point because proper crossfade loops are a foreign language to them.
The cheesy pianos that sound like a midi grand with a DX7 layered over it that is supposed to sound like a C7 is hilarious to hear that yamaha cant replicate their own sound. Round robin sampling would be cool if they mixed even one drum sample properly or at least allowed you to mix it so it doesnt sound like forks drumming on a first act kit with hard plastic heads and no moon-gel
They have added no more than 30 multisamples since the s900 and claim to have many more new sounds but if you shut the effects and group the sounds by what sounds similar you will soon figure out that they mostly just made new FX and mixes over the same old sounds and merged GM and XG sounds calling them new sounds before moving them over to the factory banks. Even the so called audio styles were put in and not time sliced properly using loops
because they are too lazy to put in the work and do it without loops
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Ari Pearl Music
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Musicwithharry
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Posts: 694
Location: Anamosa, IA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Aripearlmusic wrote: | Sorry but you need to learn mixing because even a sweepable 2 band EQ is only enough for a properly mixed master to adjust for the difference in sound in speaker models and sizes and their frequency response. Yamaha sounds themselves are not mixed and actually need a 4 band EQ because of the boosted sub bass in every sound, complete lack of lows, boosted highs, and the wrong mids frequencies used in every sound. If you have no gain control you can gain stage the mix. Sampling is waste of time if you also can't properly EQ each layer on the machine itself or in the YEM to adjust it for the sound difference. Thats besides every looped sound having a distinctly audible looping point because proper crossfade loops are a foreign language to them.
The cheesy pianos that sound like a midi grand with a DX7 layered over it that is supposed to sound like a C7 is hilarious to hear that yamaha cant replicate their own sound. Round robin sampling would be cool if they mixed even one drum sample properly or at least allowed you to mix it so it doesnt sound like forks drumming on a first act kit with hard plastic heads and no moon-gel
They have added no more than 30 multisamples since the s900 and claim to have many more new sounds but if you shut the effects and group the sounds by what sounds similar you will soon figure out that they mostly just made new FX and mixes over the same old sounds and merged GM and XG sounds calling them new sounds before moving them over to the factory banks. Even the so called audio styles were put in and not time sliced properly using loops
because they are too lazy to put in the work and do it without loops |
If you are directing this to me, then I will first say that I do not need to learn 'mixing' at all. I am not going to read my resume to you, but suffice it to say that I have been in the business a LONG time and understand gain staging, EQ, and everything else.
I was simply stating the features on the Genos and the new PSR-SX line that is coming out. I also said that it would be enough for most people, and I stand by that too. Why? Because, I think, that many who buy the Yamaha arranger lines may be more in the consumer level than we in the pro level. I know of many producers and project studio owners who stand by Yamaha's arrangers for their jingle, song, template creation and Yamaha serves them well. I happen to LOVE Korg, but will buy anything from any brand that would suit my needs.
With regard to your opinion on Yamaha's samples, you may be correct on some levels.
The Yamaha synth line surely has the EQ needed to differentiate each track according to one's taste, but again, that taste is also subjective. That is why there are guys like us to mix and master tracks for other clients.
With regard to Gain-staging, gain staging should be used to get a good input level into the mixer without causing distortion. If you are mixing with Gain controls instead of channel faders (or their software representations for actual faders), then you are not mixing correctly.
It sounds like you are not happy with Yamaha at all. I can respect that. If it is that big of a problem for you, then dump all your Yamaha gear and get stuff that meets your needs.
I am not a fan-boy of Yamaha at all, as I feel that they are way overpriced for what one gets. I do understand Yamaha's position though, and their 'ease of use' is certainly welcoming for the crowd they are marketing to with their PSR lines (and with the Tyros/Genos stuff).
Grace,
Harry
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Alesis Vortex Keytar, Alesis QS6.2, Alesis QSR, Alesis SR-16, Behringer Deepmind-12, Ensoniq Avista 7600, Ensoniq VFX, Ensoniq VFX-SD, Ensoniq SQ1+, (2) Ensoniq SQ-R+/32, Korg i3 (2020 Version), (2) Korg Kross 1-61, (2) Korg Kross 1-88, Korg Minilogue XD, Korg Minilogue XD Module, Korg M50-61, Korg PA700, Korg X5DR, Korg Z3, Kurzweil SP1, Lowrey EZP3 (bascially a Kawai), Roland D-05, Roland E-09, Waldorf Streichfett, Yamaha Reface CP, Yamaha Reface CS, Yamaha Reface DX, Yamaha Reface YC |
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Biggles
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Joined: 31 Aug 2017
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Aripearlmusic
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Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Posts: 342
Location: BROOKLYN NY
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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When a sound is normalized to 0db and still lacking tone any added frequencies will result in distortion until the gain is brought back which how you can have distortion at low volume. Many sounds suffer from this issue just like many korg sounds do also. The difference is korg has gain control, level, and trim in every oscillator as well as a 3 band EQ with sweepable mids.
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Ari Pearl Music
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Biggles
Platinum Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2017
Posts: 1006
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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So true
Korg sounds do need some user tweaking to get them sounding sweet
If anyone wants shrill and harsh sounds then they can always buy a Yamaha.
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Biggles
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Biggles
Platinum Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2017
Posts: 1006
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Another side by side demo of the 4X and a Genos.
This time it is my local store producing the video and Justin their keyboard sales guy doing the playing.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0YwAarhuH2I
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Biggles
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Eduardo_Arg
Senior Member
Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 269
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Guys:
About some opinions related with Yamaha Genos, i think any comparision have no sence: meanwhile Yamaha produce entertainment arrangers, Korg produces Profesional ones.- About sounding, both have its "personal" flavor, in this, any opinion is subjetive.- Said this, what's important is the hability of each keyboard to manage how end users cant edit any aspects: sound, effects, and the most important, a powerfull secuencer inside instrument.-
In this Korg wins, with Korg arrenger you can create, edit, and modify styles without using a Daw.- Korg Pa sequencer looks and works different from Kronos and Krome, but, works fine.- Yamaha lacks this, so if you want to edit an style you must use a Daw.- So, why can somebody pay lot of money for a keyboard that mandatory user to have more hardware to edit an style.-
Poliphony - as someone mention that topic - does not qualify a Keyboard as profesional.- Korg have 128, and really it's more than enough to produce fantastic songs.-
Arrangers are usefull no only for one man solo band, also for composers, and in this, Korg provides powerull tools that Yamaha laks.-
Just an opinion.-
Enjoy your Korg an play music, thats enough to be happy.-
With regards.
Eduardo
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korg1
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Joined: 17 Nov 2002
Posts: 955
Location: http://pasongstyles.com/
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| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Genos :
-Better quality samples
-Better sound programming especially on articulations
-Ready in the mix sounds
-Better effects and eq. on each each sound
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Giner
Platinum Member
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 1345
Location: Alberta
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| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Bottom line, you buy what suits you. Simple, really.
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