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Musicwithharry
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Posts: 694
Location: Anamosa, IA
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 Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Korghelper wrote: | The accuracy of built in speakers is easy to check compared to decent reference monitors (or a high quality PA). Play a high quality, well recorded commercial WAV or high bitrate MP3 on a set of studio monitors (or the PA), then play the same thing through the arranger's built-ins.
Unless you are deaf, you will hear an enormous difference. Highs, mid-range, lows, all will sound totally different. Let's be honest here. If decent sounding speakers could be made as small as arrangers' are, we would ALL be using them..! And the louder you get, the worse it becomes.
Arranger speakers are a convenience for people without decent speakers already, but the minute you have a decent pair, you'll never be happy with built-ins again. |
I agree, in a studio environment  For performing live, the speakers are fine for smaller gigs. It is fair to say that the internal speakers are not of the quality of studio monitors. Even my Presonus Eris 3.5 monitors are superior, especially in my studio environment.
The internal speakers would sound better if they were facing us like studio monitors would be, as well.
I hope that most people would not be using the internal speakers for studio monitoring. For playing live and for live monitoring, they are just fine. The internal speakers are not designed for critical studio listening, but for live work, they are just fine. I play at around 50% volume at the nursing homes, most of the time using the internal speakers on my PA700. They fill the room with sound and people can hear them fine. For the bigger rooms, I bring a PA system and use the internal speakers for my own listening while playing.
Grace,
Harry
_________________
Alesis Vortex Keytar, Alesis QS6.2, Alesis QSR, Alesis SR-16, Behringer Deepmind-12, Ensoniq Avista 7600, Ensoniq VFX, Ensoniq VFX-SD, Ensoniq SQ1+, (2) Ensoniq SQ-R+/32, Korg i3 (2020 Version), (2) Korg Kross 1-61, (2) Korg Kross 1-88, Korg Minilogue XD, Korg Minilogue XD Module, Korg M50-61, Korg PA700, Korg X5DR, Korg Z3, Kurzweil SP1, Lowrey EZP3 (bascially a Kawai), Roland D-05, Roland E-09, Waldorf Streichfett, Yamaha Reface CP, Yamaha Reface CS, Yamaha Reface DX, Yamaha Reface YC |
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Korghelper
Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 584
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Aripearlmusic wrote: | | I tried it out on the T5 and the Genos and i found that the 4x when set properly has much more natural sounding ensemble voicing just as good as Session Strings Pro 2 and Session Horns even better in some ways after i sampled them on it |
Still not quite getting it. I am not referring to the usual 'Ensemble' mode that most arrangers have where a block voicing is derived from the chords you play in the left and generated off one note you play in the RH. Ensemble Mode in the Genos is derived from what you actually PLAY in the RH. So you can play any chord, any voicing you want rather than preset voicings derived by automatic chord recognition.
I'd be fascinated to hear examples of your Korg voicing tricks. The thing is, if the Korg actually CAN do proper divisi voicing tricks, why don't Korg have any ROM sounds that use it?
One of the issues that plague oscillator programming to do the feature rather than a proper divisi system is, play a three note chord with three sounds. Lift one. Does the voice stop or jump to one of the held notes..? Give an oscillator a setting where it plays the lowest voice, then change it, it jumps the sustained portion of the sample to the new note. A proper divisi doesn't. It will only use the voice when a new one is played. And the system is independent of what range you use it in.
I am sure your system can generate interesting sounds, but if you've used proper divisi VSTi, you know it isn't a proper divisi system. |
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Aripearlmusic
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Posts: 350
Location: BROOKLYN NY
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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I do the key range both in the oscillator and in the multisample so you can have 1 sound that has 3 or 4 sounds in it with sampled splits. No instrument goes out of its range and even without using any automatic harmony every brass or string line is exactly as played. The trick is having a few of the ranges being an octave off or repeating like C3-B4 and then starting again so C5 is the same as C3 continuing up to B6 for example. Use 3 stereo multisamples (6) and you absolutely must use compression and seperate Legato layers with no attack. Staccato layers also need a playable control and assuming you are using all 3 upper voices you will need at least 1 of them linked with an expression pedal or midi breath controller. Yes im a little bit familiar with this VSTi thing you are talking about but i only have 12Tb of AAX sound libraries and about a dozen brass, string, and woodwind plugins so you may have refresh my memory 😝
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Ari Pearl Music
Sound Developer for the 5x and 4x at https://performersheaven.com/en/shop-en/by-author-en/ari-en |
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3127
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| Korghelper wrote: | | Aripearlmusic wrote: | | Korg has that ensemble feature. If you set the right key range on the oscillators and combine the oscillators of 2 horns per sound and use upper 1, 2, and 3 with most of the ensemble harmony options you will get a 6 sound ensemble with proper voicing (assuming you play it right of course) ive been able to pull off an 18 sound ensemble with over a dozen controllable articulations besides key switches, breath control and expression. |
Actually, no. The whole idea of the Ensemble is, play one note or four, it only uses four voices. It is an automatic divisi, if you want the technical musical explanation. It doesn't need key ranges (it works over the entire range of the instrument).Play one note, all voices play the one note. Play four notes, they split out automatically to one voice per note. It is equally good for small string ensembles, so tutti and divisi have the same power (every extra note of a string ensemble doubles the size of the ensemble when the sample is of the whole ensemble).
You get very weird things happening to notes if you change the number of voices in a chord while they are held when you use Korg's system (which isn't really used on any of Korg's sounds, AFAIK). I'm guessing you've never tried Yamaha's Ensemble mode? It's about the closest thing to a proper divisi mode like VSTi's use in a keyboard at the moment. |
Thats the easy way for ensembles...
There is also the hard way... where you play up to 4 notes and only when you play 4 notes, you hear 4 instruments.......when younplay 2 notes, you hear 2..
There is so many ways you can use the ensemble voiices to add dymacs to your performance.. just take a day off, get behind a Genos and play with them
_________________
Korg Kronos 2/88 , Genos, Mainstage3 +VSTsu, ipad pro, GSi Gemini, Roland Integra 7, Jupiter Xm, Yamaha motif XS rack, Ketron SD90.
www.keyszone.boards.net |
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3127
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Korghelper wrote: | | Aripearlmusic wrote: | | I tried it out on the T5 and the Genos and i found that the 4x when set properly has much more natural sounding ensemble voicing just as good as Session Strings Pro 2 and Session Horns even better in some ways after i sampled them on it |
Still not quite getting it. I am not referring to the usual 'Ensemble' mode that most arrangers have where a block voicing is derived from the chords you play in the left and generated off one note you play in the RH. Ensemble Mode in the Genos is derived from what you actually PLAY in the RH. So you can play any chord, any voicing you want rather than preset voicings derived by automatic chord recognition.
I'd be fascinated to hear examples of your Korg voicing tricks. The thing is, if the Korg actually CAN do proper divisi voicing tricks, why don't Korg have any ROM sounds that use it?
One of the issues that plague oscillator programming to do the feature rather than a proper divisi system is, play a three note chord with three sounds. Lift one. Does the voice stop or jump to one of the held notes..? Give an oscillator a setting where it plays the lowest voice, then change it, it jumps the sustained portion of the sample to the new note. A proper divisi doesn't. It will only use the voice when a new one is played. And the system is independent of what range you use it in.
I am sure your system can generate interesting sounds, but if you've used proper divisi VSTi, you know it isn't a proper divisi system. |
Korg adds just notes, by the same instrument... no divisi at all..
What yamaha did however is add some ai to the divisi that turns the studio tool divisi into a live tool..
_________________
Korg Kronos 2/88 , Genos, Mainstage3 +VSTsu, ipad pro, GSi Gemini, Roland Integra 7, Jupiter Xm, Yamaha motif XS rack, Ketron SD90.
www.keyszone.boards.net |
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Aripearlmusic
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Posts: 350
Location: BROOKLYN NY
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:23 am Post subject: |
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I believe i was quite clear about the multisample voicing which not only does better than the yamaha ensemble it allows me to use easily 5 times yamahas limit of how many instruments go into the ensemble as well as whatever articulations go into it. Have you heard of the Kontakt library called Session Horns? I sampled the whole library for the 4x and matched all the patches and articulations so it's 100% identical. Ive done the same with Session Strings pro 2, Glory BigBand Brass, and many other libraries. Yamaha has reasonable presets but zero flexibility when it comes to modifying anything. A 3 band EQ as an insert only works when the layers of the instrument are done properly and is utterly useless when the only gain control on the entire keyboard is on the microphone. Casio has a 3 band EQ and they make calculator watches. What about yamaha removing the event editor and still having no option to change the velocity of every instance of a specific note without having to adjust every single midi event one at a time? Why do they still have not a single distortion or drive effect with a 3 band EQ in it? Anyone who knows the first thing about mixing guitars knows that a 3 band EQ is crucial in an amp stack... I could give you 100 things you could do on a pa700 that cant be done on any yamaha arranger because they are not professional keyboards they designed for the guy who has day job and plays a little for fun on the side.
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Ari Pearl Music
Sound Developer for the 5x and 4x at https://performersheaven.com/en/shop-en/by-author-en/ari-en |
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Korghelper
Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 584
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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So I’m guessing that every hit record recorded before 3 band EQ was common sounds ‘unprofessional‘?!
Don’t be a slave to the tools. If the samples are recorded well in the first place, with an eye towards how they interact and sit in a mix, you don’t need the extremes of EQ you may need on either live instrument or full range sample sets.
Which is exactly what a good arranger does... |
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Aripearlmusic
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Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Posts: 350
Location: BROOKLYN NY
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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A 3 band EQ is the mandatory minimim industry standard since the 60s. Im not a slave to the processing but i value my mix. No mixing engineer will take the job if you tell him you only have a 2 band EQ because anyone with any self respect values their sound.
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Ari Pearl Music
Sound Developer for the 5x and 4x at https://performersheaven.com/en/shop-en/by-author-en/ari-en |
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Musicwithharry
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Posts: 694
Location: Anamosa, IA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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I have many synths that don’t have 3 band EQ and a few without any EQ at all.
They always sit well in a mix because their signal path is really top notch.
While I agree that EQ is a powerful tool, some keyboards have the dynamic range and depth that lets them sit well in a mix...
Just because one has keyboards that can be adjusted does not always mean that they ‘should’ be adjusted...that is kind of Recording and Mixing - 101.
Grace,
Harry
_________________
Alesis Vortex Keytar, Alesis QS6.2, Alesis QSR, Alesis SR-16, Behringer Deepmind-12, Ensoniq Avista 7600, Ensoniq VFX, Ensoniq VFX-SD, Ensoniq SQ1+, (2) Ensoniq SQ-R+/32, Korg i3 (2020 Version), (2) Korg Kross 1-61, (2) Korg Kross 1-88, Korg Minilogue XD, Korg Minilogue XD Module, Korg M50-61, Korg PA700, Korg X5DR, Korg Z3, Kurzweil SP1, Lowrey EZP3 (bascially a Kawai), Roland D-05, Roland E-09, Waldorf Streichfett, Yamaha Reface CP, Yamaha Reface CS, Yamaha Reface DX, Yamaha Reface YC |
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Aripearlmusic
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Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Posts: 350
Location: BROOKLYN NY
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3127
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| Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Aripearlmusic wrote: | | I have plenty of sounds that also have a flat EQ but at least the option is there for when i need it. |
I think its kind of narrow minded to vallue a keyboard on having a 2 or 3 part eq..
Let me asure you there is a 3part eq in the insert Effects.... so when you need one, just assign one of the whopping 28 insert effects on Genos to a 3 part EQ.
So basically, you have the option...
By the way, the dsp power in the Genos is almost unreal for an arranger keyboard, espescially when compared to the competition..
_________________
Korg Kronos 2/88 , Genos, Mainstage3 +VSTsu, ipad pro, GSi Gemini, Roland Integra 7, Jupiter Xm, Yamaha motif XS rack, Ketron SD90.
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Musicwithharry
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Posts: 694
Location: Anamosa, IA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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I know a few people with the Tyros arrangers and their main reason for getting it was because they wanted an arranger for playing songs (consumer level operation) and for production (writing commercial jingles). They LOVED the Tyros and the functionality it gave them.
I was never really an adopter of the Tyros (and probably the Genos), but certainly appreciate the functionality they have. Yamaha does arrangers really well, even if it is for the consumer stuff.
I imagine that the Genos is a step forward, and it does add a bunch of stuff that makes it even more applicable to production stuff for commercials and such.
I love my PA700 and would never trade it for anything. I love the customization that Korg provides. They may have an edge over Yamaha in this regard. I do not think that Roland even competes anymore in the arranger category, although I would love to spend time with their older VA arranger series...
I do not think that it is fair to compare the arrangers from any company with the software stuff. Tearing apart the sample quality by comparing them to soft synth or sample libraries is not fair. Of course, sample libraries are going to have more clarity and variation than the memory-limited space available on the arrangers.
I think that the only hardware unit that would compare with software libraries would be the Kronos and that is partly because they have the space in memory to house larger libraries. Maybe the PA4X does too - I really do not know the full details of that unit.
Maybe that is why Korg does not put KARMA into an arranger. Maybe that is why Korg does not put the arranger functionality into a Kronos-type synth.
I find it a bit trivial that one of the main points of complaint has been the 3-band EQ thing. Most, if not all, of these units have the ability to directly interface with a PC and don't they record multi-channel audio into a DAW through the USB functionality?
With that functionality, it would be possible to add a multi-band EQ on each channel if desired...
I do not use my computer in that fashion and certainly understand the need for more functionality within the hardware unit. Korg provides this, maybe more so than the others do...
Grace,
Harry
_________________
Alesis Vortex Keytar, Alesis QS6.2, Alesis QSR, Alesis SR-16, Behringer Deepmind-12, Ensoniq Avista 7600, Ensoniq VFX, Ensoniq VFX-SD, Ensoniq SQ1+, (2) Ensoniq SQ-R+/32, Korg i3 (2020 Version), (2) Korg Kross 1-61, (2) Korg Kross 1-88, Korg Minilogue XD, Korg Minilogue XD Module, Korg M50-61, Korg PA700, Korg X5DR, Korg Z3, Kurzweil SP1, Lowrey EZP3 (bascially a Kawai), Roland D-05, Roland E-09, Waldorf Streichfett, Yamaha Reface CP, Yamaha Reface CS, Yamaha Reface DX, Yamaha Reface YC |
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Aripearlmusic
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Posts: 350
Location: BROOKLYN NY
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:09 am Post subject: |
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For the last time the 3 band EQ im talking about should be both on each channel as well as every note of every drum kit and on every layer of every sound otherwise you cant target a specific layer and it becomes a Bus EQ. Try mixing a kick or bass with a 2 band EQ and let me know when you have to give up. All yamaha sounds need a 3 band because not a single one is mixed well enough to program with. The main reason why they sound better when sampled onto a korg is because korg gives all the tools NECESSARY and basically all the shortcuts as well. The Genos and the Tyros do not have the ability to multitrack the audio beyond 2 bus outputs. If they put any work into the sampling in the last 8 years you would hope that they would at least sample one thing properly but they still haven't improved their sample library because they have been too busy on developing presets. Professional sound and style developers dont need presets. They need the necessary tools to create and modify their own. This is why Yamaha is home keyboard and not for gigging professionals
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Ari Pearl Music
Sound Developer for the 5x and 4x at https://performersheaven.com/en/shop-en/by-author-en/ari-en |
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duby2
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2002
Posts: 1379
Location: USA Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:40 am Post subject: $$ |
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Just wondering who sell more arrangers .
and make more $$$$$....
korg , roland . Yamaha . casio . or ??? |
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Biggles
Platinum Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2017
Posts: 1012
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:35 am Post subject: Re: $$ |
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| duby2 wrote: | Just wondering who sell more arrangers .
and make more $$$$$....
korg , roland . Yamaha . casio . or ??? |
That has to be a easy one.
Yamaha and by a country mile.
They have about 12 different versions in their beginner range alone, then 3 in the S range plus the Genos.
This instills manufacturer loyalty to the Yamaha brand since for many changing manufacturer is to much of a hassle.
What do Korg do EK, 700, 1000 & 4X.
OK there is the 300 & 600 but who wants or will buy old models.
Forget Roland they are bit players in the Arranger market.
Casio on the other hand are on the up but have a mountain to climb.
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Biggles
Lancashire, UK |
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