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Pa5x around the corner?
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The average style has possibly two guitar parts, maybe a couple of keyboard parts, some drum and percussion Parts, a bass part, some strings or pads, maybe some horns...

So, let's see... A Phaser for the Rhodes. Two different amp sims for the guitar parts (no serious professional would use those horrible sampled distortion patches, right?!). An autowah for the Clavinet. A small room for the percussion, a bigger space for the drums. A compressor for the bass. Some spacey effect for the pad, maybe a flanger on the strings (old school!).

Oh yeah, aren't those Keyboard Parts going to need some insert effects too? There's four of those, so four more inserts, if you don't mind.

And please... if you are going to suggest using a DAW for extra sound controls, you are allowing a DAW to mitigate the Yamaha's lack of a 3-band, too. Sauce for the goose...

But if we are talking all in the box, personally, I'd rather take 28 insert effects over one more EQ band per Part. And that extra 128 voices of polyphony might come in handy too...
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Aripearlmusic
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guitar amps can be sampled in if you know what you are doing. The phaser can be done in sound mode without using a phaser effect. The autowah can also be done with the filter and LFO page in sound mode. The compressor isnt necessary on the bass if you are mainly using it for sub have already set a narrower velocity range. Reverb should never be on a drum bus channel insert. If you sample properly you wont need compression, reverb, delay, chorus, flanger, phaser, wah... Sound controls through midi is a relatively new concept in arranger keyboards because the standards for programming have gone up 10 fold in the last 4-6 years
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who's got time for all that.? Tell you what... while you are struggling to do all that, the majority of players would simply prefer to insert the proper effect. Maybe you've got days to faff around trying to get a phaser effect. Me, I want a phaser, I want it NOW!

And honestly, if you are trying to tell me that sampled distortion is any substitute for a proper amp sim, I'm beginning to doubt those credentials. I seriously suggest you never try running that train of thought past any actual studio guitarists!

If you know what you are doing, LOL

This thread has devolved into absurdity. I'll tell you one thing. If Korg gave us 28 insert effects, you'd be the first praising them for it.
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Biggles
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rikkisbears wrote:
Biggles wrote:

Like it or not the vast majority of buyers of any PA or yes even an Arranger made by another Company are not professional full time Musicians, they are hobbyist, learners, and improvers.


Hi Biggles,
tend to think you’re right. Maybe ignorant hobbyists like myself should put HOBBYIST, next to our avatar. Haha.

The idea of a forum is try to help people not abuse them, or at least it used to be.


Your are so right.

It is the same in most forums, most members try to help each other and they are civil about it, whilst a very few have a smart ass attitude and demeaning way of expressing their self centred opinions.

It is possible to be knowledgable and civil in responses and it is up to Admin to ensure that this happens if members are not capable of treating others how they expect to be treated by others.
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Aripearlmusic
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all my messing around with the settings on the phaser effects it still takes me no more than 15 seconds to set it up on any sound. The reason i prefer to recreate many effects inside the sound setting is because when its done that way i gain easily 5 times the automation control potential and since i make many of my beats in Protools its nice to have control over as many aspects of the sound as i can. I dont rely on presets at all simply because just like in every other sound design software the presets are mere suggestions and starter templates but are never perfect for how you play because they have no idea what you will play and how you like your mix and how you play. If they made the presets perfect for you they would be useless for someone else who doesnt sound exactly like you. Btw expecting a phaser to sound great on guitar and then using the same effect on an electric piano with the same expectation would just be foolish as they dont have the same sound or range or get the same EQ, gain.
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Ari Pearl Music
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, the fact that most phasers that keyboard players used to put their Rhodes through back in the day were originally designed for guitarists doesn’t fit your revisionist history?

As I said, this conversation has become stupid.

And what’s all this talk about presets? Are you under the misapprehension that insert effects have no parameters? Or that these aren’t addressable in a sequencing scenario with sysex? Bottom line is, if you are splitting out your parts for further processing in ProTools, you can do the same with a Genos and apply your almighty 3-band EQ there as well. And if you aren’t splitting things out, 28 insert effects (fully editable) are a bloody sight more useful than one 3-band per Part.

But hey, you are the ‘expert’, right? LOL
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Aripearlmusic
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay let me make this really really simple because I thought I already did. When you have a piano sound it has many layers each one of those layers on the Korg has a 3-band EQ. The 3-band EQ that gets put on the channel has one band that is directly connected to one of those three which is the mids band. This is completely different from an insert effect when you put and insert effect on the sound that effect is on the entire Channel even though it can be controlled with sysex data the 3 band or even 5 band EQ cannot be adjusted with sysex data whether you have a Korg or a Yamaha. This insert affect 3-band EQ is not the three band I'm talking about. What I am talking about is the 3-band EQ that is on every oscillator as well as the three band EQ that is on every key in a drum kit. The gain control and trim that I'm talking about is on Korg and is non-existent on Yamaha. Having a 2 Band EQ or having a 3-band EQ is great but it depends on whether the layers themselves are EQed
properly. Let's say I have one snare that I want to use with four different EQ settings. On Korg all I have to do is change the EQ setting and save it to four different keys or layers using the same sample. On a Yamaha there is no other way to do it besides using
four samples. As far as the phaser goes the settings are different both on the phaser and compressor when setting the difference between guitar and a rhodes because the ADSR of each has virtually no commonality.
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Ari Pearl Music
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, "PA5X around the corner?"

Perhaps, maybe, don't know, but as Bachus says, it would be interesting to know Korg's direction.

Very Happy
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pawlikp100
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

karmathanever wrote:
So, "PA5X around the corner?"

Perhaps, maybe, don't know, but as Bachus says, it would be interesting to know Korg's direction.

Very Happy


That is right, we would have a good basis to discussion. Come on Korg.
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Biggles
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Korg released the 700 and 1000 demo models were instore in September 2017 but in the case of the 1000 it was not widely available to buy until March 2018.

As is was I somehow bought one of the very few 700’s that were instore for demo use.

So even if the PA5X was announced it would probably be many months before it became readily available and even then likely to be at a premium.

Until it is released I would expect Korg to be very tight lipped.

NAMM 2020 is my guess at a new keyboard being announced by Korg.
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musiccankill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biggles wrote:

NAMM 2020 is my guess at a new keyboard being announced by Korg.

Or maybe not even a new keyboard but another update for the 4x (if it doesn't come earlier)
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Biggles
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

musiccankill wrote:
Biggles wrote:

NAMM 2020 is my guess at a new keyboard being announced by Korg.

Or maybe not even a new keyboard but another update for the 4x (if it doesn't come earlier)


Still think a new board is on the way or a major update to an existing one, so by the time of NAMM:-

The EK 50 will be 2 years old.

The Kross 2 will be 3 years old.

Versions of the Kronos have been released in the last two years.

PA1000 and PA 700 are 3 years since their release date.
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Biggles
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musiccankill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe we see an update to the pa300 which hasn't yet been updated!
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aripearlmusic wrote:
Okay let me make this really really simple because I thought I already did. When you have a piano sound it has many layers each one of those layers on the Korg has a 3-band EQ. The 3-band EQ that gets put on the channel has one band that is directly connected to one of those three which is the mids band. This is completely different from an insert effect when you put and insert effect on the sound that effect is on the entire Channel even though it can be controlled with sysex data the 3 band or even 5 band EQ cannot be adjusted with sysex data whether you have a Korg or a Yamaha. This insert affect 3-band EQ is not the three band I'm talking about. What I am talking about is the 3-band EQ that is on every oscillator as well as the three band EQ that is on every key in a drum kit. The gain control and trim that I'm talking about is on Korg and is non-existent on Yamaha. Having a 2 Band EQ or having a 3-band EQ is great but it depends on whether the layers themselves are EQed
properly. Let's say I have one snare that I want to use with four different EQ settings. On Korg all I have to do is change the EQ setting and save it to four different keys or layers using the same sample. On a Yamaha there is no other way to do it besides using
four samples. As far as the phaser goes the settings are different both on the phaser and compressor when setting the difference between guitar and a rhodes because the ADSR of each has virtually no commonality.


Let me make it even simpler. I could care less about a 3 band on every layer if the cost is the loss of 28 freely insertable insert effects with full parameter control of them. And if I have to halve my polyphony to fake the effect of a phaser, that's another compromise I am unwilling to try. For those that merely work in studios, it's an option. On stage with only one keyboard, it is NOT.

I am still not sure where you are getting this fixation on phaser settings. Perhaps English isn't your mother tongue, but surely you don't think that inserting a phaser or compressor has no parameters to adjust to change its settings from those suitable for a Rhodes, or a guitar, or a synth..?

And, let me reiterate, your opinion that subtle changes in EQ from layer to layer are a satisfactory substitute for multiple samples flies against the success of every drum VST library out there like BFD, Superior Drums, etc..

You may have your opinion, but the vast majority of producers and composers don't agree.
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Aripearlmusic
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Full parameter control on insert effects is nice but when you have to choose between automating the no more than 4 parameters that support control changes and program changes and having total control over at least 20 automation channels, the top hardware sampler on any arranger vs a barely functional one, 3 band EQ with Trim, Gain, Level, vs 2 band EQ with no trim, no gain, and only volume/expression, or 2 fully customisable LFOs that each can support over 10 control channels vs 1 LFO with no control automation whatsoever, 24 oscillators each with a velocity split and 1000s of parameters for factory and user sounds vs no access to factory sound layering beyond sample swapping and basic sound controls.... The professional option is quite clear.

As far as sampling drums no matter how great your sampling is every keyboard model will play the same sample slightly different. Superior drummer uses 8 velocity layers per key but alternates the round robin playing between a few versions assigned to other keys and frankly is so much better than BFD. Most drum machines use 1 layer with sound controls and EQ providing the "other layers"
Yamaha restricts the access to their sounds to the point that you can't fix their mistakes like the looping errors/clicks/pops, SA1 and 2 assignable layers that have no dynamic control and boosted sub bass. Their drums sound like a first act kit recorded with a voice recorder. Their "C7" on the Genos is the absolute worst emulation of a C7 which is quite funny considering it's their Piano model.

Yes English is not my first language. French is my first and I speak 6 other languages besides English.
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