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AntonySharmman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Backup full resource / Save All Reply with quote

isaacl wrote:
like one made in V2, and restoring it in a newer OS version, like V3, will work correctly?

I've already written that BKP do not contain any OS files not even meta data from OS version that was created so yep it will work !
If you will globally restore a BKP file created in OS version 2 in Pa4X OS V3.1 then you will not have newly developed factory sounds
but the older ones of OS v2 , but with all features of OS v3.1
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Backup full resource / Save All Reply with quote

AntonySharmman wrote:
... BKP is the only Pa file that has CRC and parity verification and you can never load a corrupted BKP file ...


Is not it right, that a bkp-file also may contain data with a faulty structure?

I believe CRC and parity verification can be misunderstood. "Corrupted" BKP file for me simply means you can not restore such a bkp-file, because data get corrupted between backup and restore procedure. Parity verification will recognise if data are not identically 1:1 - however, does not look after a perfect data structure accordingly to Pa arrangers.

If memory of a Pa-Keyboard may contain data with damaged structure - as happens with samples in memory of Pa1000 before version 1.3.1 - it maybe backuped and restored via a bkp-file. That would not cause complications, but it will be faulty in Pa-arrangers because of its damaged structure, which remains as faulty as before backuped.
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AntonySharmman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

None of mentioned will ever happen in CRC parity checker and the way that this Linux OS is veryfying integrity , trust me ,
just like WinRar compression , just 2 states , full working or none working !
All required info has been already published for forum members.
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:54 pm    Post subject: Backup full resource / Save All Reply with quote

AntonySharmman wrote:
.. the way that this Linux OS is veryfying integrity .. full working or none working ...


Thank you Anthony, this really is reassuring.

AntonySharmman wrote:
.. is not accurate, you can restore selective data from a BKP file if you un-check "All" including factory resources regardless of protected or not factory resources...


Ok - choosing the data unchecking "ALL" to RESTORE can be done limited to selective data (Style, Pad, KbdSetLibrary, Sounds&DK, PCM, Songbook, Global, VoicePreset).

But should be published for forum members, that this is no LOADING of individual data as can be done from a SET file.

So should be kept in mind RESTORING selective data from a BKP file will delete from the internal memory all types of that data selected including custom data.
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isaacl



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Backup full resource / Save All Reply with quote

AntonySharmman wrote:
isaacl wrote:
like one made in V2, and restoring it in a newer OS version, like V3, will work correctly?

I've already written that BKP do not contain any OS files not even meta data from OS version that was created so yep it will work !
If you will globally restore a BKP file created in OS version 2 in Pa4X OS V3.1 then you will not have newly developed factory sounds
but the older ones of OS v2 , but with all features of OS v3.1


Thanks Antony, definitely good to know, I had assumed that I would have to load from a SET when I eventually upgrade to 3.x (once things are ironed out), using a BKP, like I normally use when backing things up for myself in general, should be much easier.

Appreciate your knowledge and expertise!!
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AntonySharmman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

siebenhirter
You know something , get rid of Pa manuals world and land on reality , get a Pa4X and examine resources and Pa files real behavior.
Don't have time to waste arguing , you all know that I have the required knowledge and documents for my statements , and my
advice here is crystal clear ... BKP is the best ever file format to ensure a good working of your resources !
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:58 pm    Post subject: Backup full resource / Save All Reply with quote

AntonySharmman wrote:
.. you all know that I have the required knowledge and documents for my statements ...


... that we do and also we accept your well-founded advice - thanks Anthony.

It hardly is conceivable, why from a backup files it is possible to restore types of data. What is, besides, the advantage restoring different types of data from backups?

What will happen if different data types of different backup files are merged - like style and sounds&dk or pcm and sounds&dk from backups of different periods?

What will happen if styles with user sounds are linked to sounds not containing user sounds, or sounds&dk with user samples are linked to non existing locations in pcm because of different backups?
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This whole section only reinforces my feeling that Korg need to move to a much simpler data structure with EVERYTHING on an external medium (like a USB3 stick or high speed card) which can be removed, taken to a computer and EVERYTHING backed up in one fell swoop.

If even reasonably experienced users can be confused by the plethora of options and scenarios, what does that do the the less experienced?

Any system with both internal storage and external magnifies the chance of mistakes. I feel the ONLY thing stored internally should be the OS and ROM. Roland's system of putting everything on external USB stick is simplicity itself, and backup is noob-friendly.
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Eduardo_Arg
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Korghelper:

I think that's not possible. No company will produce a freeware OS for it's own hardware.-
Do you know any brand did that ??????
In the last 30 years i've use several brands a none of them share or make free it's OS putting them on a media that may be more easy to be hackerd.-
Other objection to put OS on removable media is it's own deterioration of the media and eventually the keyboard conector.-
I think that your suggestion has been taken in count by Korg engenieers, and the choose the better way to put it's own OS.-
Just an opinion.
Eduardo
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pa4x_user
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I feel the ONLY thing stored internally should be the OS and ROM.


Hi Eduardo, I think you may have misunderstood what Korghelper is saying.
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:21 am    Post subject: Backup full resource / Save All Reply with quote

Korghelper wrote:
.. EVERYTHING on an external medium (like a USB3 stick or high speed card) which can be removed, taken to a computer and EVERYTHING backed up in one fell swoop.

.. the ONLY thing stored internally should be the OS and ROM ...


That does not cause any difficulties IMHO, because OS and ROM are stored internally and are not saved to BKP-files, also everything of data (musical resources) with Full Resource Backup is moved to an external medium (bkp file).

But I think it is not recommended restoring selective data of a bkp-file without thinking about what exactly will happen.

As example: what will happen to selective restore last Styles and KbdSets without also restoring last PCMs or Sounds & DKs? Or even worse - what happens if selective restoring PCMs or Sounds & DKs of older BKPs? Will resources like styles and kbdSets, that are newer selective restored find its user sounds in the older PCM data?

Therefore, with BKP files special care is required if RESTORING SELECTIVE DATA of BKP files. Nowhere a describtion is to be found that will answer that questions, that I would wish to find in Pa manuals world - nevertheless no user should get rid of them, because often there is more inside than can be imagined.

Landing on reality with Pa4x without basic informations about such an essential area like saving / restoring data really does not help.
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AntonySharmman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll repeat for last time due to stop misleading speculations of people that are not aware of source code !

- BKP format contains all factory and User Banks with all settings/preferences per Sound/Style/Pad/KBD SET positions , Global settings
panel current state and every single adjustment of your current Set plus your current custom samples in any good or bad state if
they're working properly.
- BKP do not save any system files/meta data or OS information since is not needed.
- BKP format as name recalls is used only for recovering your Set and not for exploring/merging resources and messing up your Pa
arranger , so any BKP partial recover will work flawlessly recovering only global groups of resources f.e. if selecting Styles , this will
recover both Factory (or modified factory) & User Styles Banks of your setup and this is absolutely reasonable !
- The primary advantage of integrity checker that BKP format contains , is that you will never load corrupted resources , if BKP file has
a different parity of the original saved then this will never loaded , so no matter of OS you have on board , your resources will not been
revised by a newer OS or converted if incompatible as in SET.ALL partial loading and will work as when saved with reference to the same
factory or custom samples positions ( if factory rom sounds have changed like in OS v2 then they'll point to the old positions).
- All above are valid up to OS v3.1 state.
- BKP is the Pro saving procedure for sound developers if this is telling you something ...

Hope this helps
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:01 pm    Post subject: Backup full resource / Save All Reply with quote

AntonySharmman wrote:
.. to stop misleading speculations of people that are not aware of source code ! ..


The fewest users probably are aware of the source code, but also in manuals no hints are to find, for which a selective Restore should be useful.

As expected - at least your information now confirms that a restore with selective selection is useless for exploring and merging because messing up the keyboard.

First of all it is important to know that a selective restore is unsuitable for merging data as can done with load commands of setfiles data.

This information simply was missing, but is important so that users do not get the wrong impression of what to do with the selective selection of the restore!
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Biggles
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps a Sticky post is required on the whole subject of Backing up a PA, what to do, what it is for and what it actually does when it has to be used in a restore procedure.

How to roll back an OS in case the update is to bug ridden to use effectively.

Save All, what is does save and what it is used for.

Etc

OK before those with far more PA knowledge than I throw in the Manual thing, there is a lot of confusion and Korg Manuals are not exactly the most user friendly of things to wade through.
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:11 pm    Post subject: Backup full resource / Save All Reply with quote

Biggles wrote:
... a Sticky post is required .... how to roll back an OS ... there is a lot of confusion and Korg Manuals are not exactly the most user friendly of things to wade through.


What kind of confusion still exists since the detailed postings of your "understanding, backup creates a copy of OS?"

Biggles wrote:
.... My understanding is:- BACKUP does what it says, it creates a copy of the Operating System that can be used to roll back to a prior version if required following an update to said OS or simply to reinstall it .......


Maybe Korg Manuals are not most user friendly, but most important procedures are described. Most of that describtions - like how to backup or to save all musical resources - again in essence, they have been repeated here in recent posts of this thread.

But at least something of your own initiative is expected - so please at least read the concerned postings and manuals of your arrangers. As also mentioned there even more is inside as you think.

At the very least, after that, the repeated question should be avoidable, how to do an OS rollback with a backup file (--> Manual p976-979).
*
It is ok to expect help asking questions here, but you also have to be prepared to accept this help, otherwise it seems a pity to post here.

Why not further detailed question are asked here if still exists confusion? Maybe you get better answers as ever you will get with webinars!
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