Korg Forums

[ChrisDuncan]

Scenario:

Just added a Fantom 6. I have a Kronos 2 88, and love the keybed (plus, 88 keys instead of 61). The idea is to play the Fantom via the Kronos. Setting this up is straightforward enough, and everything works.

I have an Edirol UM-880 8 channel midi merge unit. Because USB drivers are frequently a hassle, I run my midi old school, 5 pin and through the merge unit. My Focusrite 18i20's midi is in included on channel 8. The Focusrite is connected via usb to the PC, which is the only usb in the setup.

I seem to be hyper sensitive to latency when playing an instrument, and to me there's just enough of a lag to bother me, especially after playing the Kronos with internal sounds, which are of course immediate.

If I cable the Kronos midi out to the Fantom midi in, it feels more immediate, so I'm getting latency from either the Edirol or the Focusrite. If it's the latter I'm just screwed, but on the chance it might be the Edirol, it might be time to upgrade as it's 20 years old.

What gizmo do you guys use for this scenario, and how low is the latency?
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Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
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Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth

[Koekepan]

I don't.

I avoid dealing with merge issues by using direct connections (under 5ms, as a rule) on specific channels.

You are always likely to run into this problem. Let me explain: a note in MIDI, assuming no other traffic such as CC data, can not turn up on the receiving end until the full note has been transmitted. MIDI transmits over DIN sockets (ignoring some weird outliers here) at 31KHz, more-or-less, which means that each transmission of 3 bytes (fairly typical for notes, conveying note, velocity and channel) takes roughly 1ms to perform. However, there's necessarily some processing lag on either end, so a typical lag number is more of the order of 3ms with a straightforward end-to-end transmission.

When you add a merge device, the rules change. Why? Because your merge device can't just passively pass the signal; it has to ingest it, interpret it, and then serialise the resulting data stream for output. Best case scenario, you're pretty much doubling your lag to over 5ms, which is where it becomes perceptible for sensitive individuals. This apparently means you.

And that's where the good news ends because on top of that, you have other things that the Kronos will be passing along if you're using it anywhere near its capacity; multiple channels, aftertouch, MIDI CC traffic - all to be shoved down the same wire that is transmitting at about the speed of a nice mid-'90s modem. And then you're doubling your lag (at least) with the retransmission by your Edirol, and it would be a minor miracle not for you to notice lag.

To minimise lag, send the signals that you have to send, as directly as possible, only to the devices that have to receive them.

If you're using the Fantom as a multichannel sound source, then I would investigate USB as a MIDI option. It has a bad name for good reasons, but in a direct connection it should be pretty reliable and massively faster than serial MIDI.

[ChrisDuncan]

That's great information, thanks.

So if I understand correctly, you're constantly unplugging cables and repatching things based on what keyboard / sound module you want to control?

Compared to many keyboard players, I have a very small rig consisting of the Kronos, the Fantom, a JV2080 and a PC / Cubase.

I'd like the Kronos to be the master keyboard, so connection needs include:

Kronos -> JV2080
Kronos -> Fantom
Kronos -> PC (via Focusrite midi ports)

Additionally, I need the PC midi tracks to play the sound modules, so there's also:

PC-> Kronos
PC -> JV2080
PC -> Fantom

That's a lot of cables to be constantly unplugging / plugging into something else, which is why I run through the Edirol.

Also, when playing back a Cubase project that uses all three, I can't do direct connections as the Focusrite has only one set of midi ports. Maybe I could make use of midi thru and daisy chain, not sure what that adds in terms of latency.

Is this really your workflow, or am I missing some aspects of it?

Really appreciate you sharing your insights and experience.
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Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
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Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth

[Koekepan]

Yes, that's pretty much what I do. Sound crazy? Maybe I am, but basically I have four different studio masters that I use for different purposes, sometimes in combination: a KORG Kross I, a Krome, an Akai Professional Force, and a Social Entropy Engine. When I combine them, I usually use a keyboard workstation along with the Engine as a keyboard and sound source together. In addition to those I have over a dozen other synths ranging from six little volcas, to a much bigger Arturia Minibrute 2S. I rewire things through mixers and recorders and effects units all the time, so a couple of extra MIDI cables is no big deal.

It works for me.

What I do that you are missing is that I use MIDI Thru devices (the Ketron Thru-5 and two MIDI Solutions Quadra Thru) and rather than merging MIDI data streams (which involves serialising them) I just copy the relevant streams to all the affected devices. Of course, the fact that the Engine and the Force (with an attached UMC1820) both have multiple MIDI out ports makes it easier.

It ends up being very simple. I can control everything from one device, and just spread out the MIDI chains from that device. I then control what goes where by how I set up the MIDI channels. I leave my Volcas on channels 11 through 16, and my analogue synths lower in the range. It makes it easy to split out all the signals, including to multitimbral devices.

Between your PC and Kronos, you should be able to do it all with USB and software settings, so that's easy. Kronos -> Fantom can be a single cable, but with a cheap and functional MIDI Solutions Quadra Thru, you can send all your Kronos MIDI channels out to both the JV and Fantom in one fell swoop. If you want the PC to send it to both, that's not too hard; with USB to the Kronos, just make sure that the Kronos forwards the appropriate channels to the other devices, and there you are. Four cables including USB, and a MIDI Solutions Quadra Thru. Done. A permanent setup, with just an occasional software reconfiguration.

Bear in mind that a synth will ignore any channels that you tell it to, so if you want to send Channel 3 to your JV and not your Fantom, just set the JV up to respond to it, and tell the Fantom to ignore it. The fact that it goes to both does no harm at all.

Then the only latency in question is the Kronos translation of the USB stream from the PC.

[ChrisDuncan]

If it works it ain't crazy!

The Quadra Thru may be useful in this solution, I've had good experiences with their stuff in the past.

One thing I discovered today is that this problem seems to be specific to the Fantom. I pointed the Kronos at the JV 2080, and even left the Edirol on Merge (I can do a point to point patch with it) to have the most noise possible on the line. Then I played piano sounds on the 2080. There was almost no discernable latency.

Also, when playing the Fantom, I periodically hit a note and there's a lag of about a 16th note (bpm 72), then it goes back to the normal latency, as though the buffer got clogged and had to catch up.

It seems like the Fantom is not as efficient in handling incoming midi, and / or perhaps the processing load of the tones is a factor since their pianos are all modeled rather than sampled like on the Kronos.

Since I now have a benchmark of normal midi latency with the 2080, which is set up in the same was as the Fantom on the Edirol, I need to do some further testing before circling for a landing.

Appreciate all the insights and suggestions. Overall I'm very happy with the rig at this point, but when technology is involved there's always something to tweak!
_________________
Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
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Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth

[Koekepan]

Sounds good.

Except for the unpredictable lag on the Fantom. That is terrible. Roland, what the hell?

Does using USB for the Fantom make any difference? I'm assuming there's no lag playing it directly.

[ChrisDuncan]

There's no lag playing directly. Haven't tested USB as my laptop for the keyboard workstation is hosed and the driver won't behave, so I have to carry it to a different computer to test.

And yeah, I agree on what the hell. That said, every piece of gear has its own quirks, especially keyboards. You figure out what the quirks are, find the workarounds, and then accept it as being what it is for the given instrument. However, I've actually taken another approach to solve this problem.

I'd purchased the Fantom 6, thinking the keyboard range wouldn't matter because I had the 88 key on the Kronos and could just use midi to control it. However, even without the latency problems, when twisting all the knobs and doing stuff it's just more convenient to use the Fantom keyboard. I couldn't play some of the piano stuff on a 61 key, but 76 is enough to cover me. I also wanted a synth action to complement the weighted 88. So, I sent it back and have ordered a Fantom 7.

I'm still going to do everything I can to optimize midi, but now I can just play things on the Fantom and know that there won't be any problem.

And of course, this is just the natural progression. I started with the -06, but the hardwired limitation on expansion memory was a showstopper, and the entire thing felt like a cheap $100 Casio from Walmart. Enter the Fantom 6, latency issues and the realization that I really wanted to be able to just play the instrument. So now we're on to the Fantom 7, which gives me a solution for both by just playing locally.

Ended up spending more than I'd planned for, but I tend to think long term. The pain in my wallet goes away quickly, but a bad solution lives on day after day. Overall I'm happy with how things are sorting out.

I'll eventually test the random lag with USB and report back for the benefit of anyone else who goes down this path. And many thanks for all your help on this.
_________________
Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
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Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth

[Koekepan]

You're welcome.

Also: I endorse your solution. It's all about getting the notes you want out of the system that you want. If MIDI isn't doing it, then some other way works. My personal bugaboo is the Waldorf Blofeld. It sounds great and does things that I love, but especially in multitimbral mode it ends up with stuck notes. For this reason I've relegated it to studio use because I'm happy to give a few tries on a given sequence until I get a good take, but I can't have that on stage.

[ChrisDuncan]

Yeah, I'm pretty happy with how it's come together overall. I love the sounds and playability of the Kronos as well as what I get out of the JV 2080, but the Fantom takes my creative environment to a whole new level. It's some up front work with any new gear to get sorted, but worth it in the end.

After being in geek / learning mode for a couple of weeks, Sunday I sat down to do a simple song snippet just to see how it would go now that I had all the bits worked out. It's exactly as easy as I'd hoped for, and within 15 minutes I had recorded everything and spit out an exported mix.

The Fantom 6 is in the box now waiting for FedEx to pick it up, and the 7 is scheduled to arrive Thursday. There are still a couple of things to work out if I decide I care about them, but with everyone's help I think I've just about got this beast tamed. Now comes the fun part.
_________________
Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth

[ChrisDuncan]

The Fantom 7 arrived today, got it all set up and was able to do some testing. I've moved a different computer to this station so the usb driver issue is resolved.

Tested controlling a Fantom piano from the Kronos four ways. Five pin through Edirol in merge mode, in point to point mode, five pin from Kronos out to Fantom in, and usb midi. The spongy feel and random lags were present in all four cases. So, to quote a keyboard player I that I respect, "Roland, what the hell?"

Of course, this test was just for completeness, I wasn't expecting different results. Nonetheless, I now have a 76 key version so I can just play the Fantom directly. That will be the most convenient when I'm working with their sequencer anyway, which was the main attraction of the keyboard.

You guys all know that I'm just a guitarist pretending to play keys, and there are still way more miles in front of me than behind in that regard. There wasn't that much of a price difference between the 76 and the weighted 88, but I actually wanted the synth action because after a few years of only playing a weighted keyboard I find I'm clumsy AF on it. You'd think it would be easier, but my fingers act like it's a whole new instrument.

In any event, it's nice to have the limitations back in my fingers instead of in the gear. I can fix the finger problem.

Thanks again for all the help, man. Much appreciated.
_________________
Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth