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| should the user pay for a MacIntel update of KLC? |
| yes |
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31% |
[ 7 ] |
| no |
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68% |
[ 15 ] |
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| Total Votes : 22 |
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Sergievsky
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 24
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 Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:00 am Post subject: |
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Is a dongle so bad? I just recently needed to use an iLok, and now the synchrosoft because of KLC-DE, and the only big problem I have with it is it scares me. Like what happens if I lose it. But as far as giving me grief in daily use, it doesn't. The challenge/response is a much bigger hassle for me. I run about 5 computers in my studio/live rigs, and I tell you, with the updates and reformats and hard disk and os upgrades, the necessity to re-register really sucks. Much easier to unplug the dongle and reformat/reinstall.
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Raul |
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Cone
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| parma wrote: | | funny I was thinking how insensitive Korg is being towards some of its users. I have no desire to upgrade to the "Digital Edition" as I have no need for the M1. Therefore, I should not have to now, suddenly, need a dongle to run software that ran without one previously. If I owned the DE I suppose this wouldn't be a big deal but as I have no intention to own the DE this rubs me the wrong way. |
So it seems. I don't know if I should even engage in this, but let me just point out that the license agreement (which according to you was "fudged" by Korg) clearly states that Korg reserves the right to "make modifications to the Licensed Program and to the support services [...] without prior notification to you". Introducing the dongle clearly falls under that clause.
No matter what you may think about software licensing agreements in general and the way they are enforced, you did agree on the license by opening the disk package, installing and using the program. |
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parma
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Cone wrote: | | parma wrote: | | funny I was thinking how insensitive Korg is being towards some of its users. I have no desire to upgrade to the "Digital Edition" as I have no need for the M1. Therefore, I should not have to now, suddenly, need a dongle to run software that ran without one previously. If I owned the DE I suppose this wouldn't be a big deal but as I have no intention to own the DE this rubs me the wrong way. |
So it seems. I don't know if I should even engage in this, but let me just point out that the license agreement (which according to you was "fudged" by Korg) clearly states that Korg reserves the right to "make modifications to the Licensed Program and to the support services [...] without prior notification to you". Introducing the dongle clearly falls under that clause.
No matter what you may think about software licensing agreements in general and the way they are enforced, you did agree on the license by opening the disk package, installing and using the program. |
I'm well aware that Korg (like most companies) reserves such a right. However, I think requiring the purchase of a separate product (dongle) in order for the former product to continue to function is not within reason and not "in the spirit" in which purchasers of the KLC entered into the original license agreement. In legal terms, I realize that my argument probably doesn't hold much water, but in a customer relations sense I think my complaint is valid. |
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Cone
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: |
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I agree with you about the spirit; unfortunately it doesn't always count in this world. But Korg is not even the worst offender in this - I think they just want to protect their assets and cover some of the costs.
What I originally reacted to were the harsh terms like "BS" and "crap customer service" you used. That does not usually help the cause. So I'm glad to see that you've toned down a bit. 
I don't like dongles any more than the average person. I prefer challenge/response, though it can be a pain too. But copy-protected CD-ROMs and random CD checks are the worst of all. Probably I'm a little biased because I already have the dongle and this does not affect me much, but I thought it wasn't really such a big deal after all. |
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parma
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Cone wrote: | I agree with you about the spirit; unfortunately it doesn't always count in this world. But Korg is not even the worst offender in this - I think they just want to protect their assets and cover some of the costs.
What I originally reacted to were the harsh terms like "BS" and "crap customer service" you used. That does not usually help the cause. So I'm glad to see that you've toned down a bit.
I don't like dongles any more than the average person. I prefer challenge/response, though it can be a pain too. But copy-protected CD-ROMs and random CD checks are the worst of all. Probably I'm a little biased because I already have the dongle and this does not affect me much, but I thought it wasn't really such a big deal after all. |
the words were perhaps too coarse, but the intent is the same 
dongles in and of themselves don't necessarily bother me. it is the sudden necessity of the dongle that bothers me. |
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cptgone
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| parma wrote: | | I don't mind paying a small upgrade fee. What I do mind is now having to buy a dongle to run software that previously didn't require it. |
+1
this is an outrage!
I own approx. €5000 in music software but I'm FED UP with this dongle nonsense. Why punish the legit user? I'm not making any money out of this, why on earth should I pay to get a less desirable version than the cracked one? I'm starting to feel like a total idiot...
BTW I didn't get the Digital Edition: I don't want dongles, you see...
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cptgone
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Sergievsky wrote: | | Is a dongle so bad? |
- I had one die on me... getting a new one was a pain - and i was lucky i wasn't forced to buy a new license for it.
- they're easy to steal - imagine gigging with a lappy that has a dongle sticking out? it only takes one thief (or clown) to finish your act, and steal your license!
- some dongles are feared by many because of all the problems they cause on DAWs
- ever tried using a DAW lappie on a 30 minutes train ride? obviously not...
- why should a legit user sacrifice a USB port for a protection scheme that is doomed to fail anyway, and only 'benefits' the dev, not you?
- do you like to pay for dongles, and their integration into the code etc.?
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cnegrad
Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2002
Posts: 1961
Location: N. Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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So how do you refute the argument that if developers can't copy protect their software, it isn't worth it to continue making them due to the incredible amount of illegal downloads of kracked versions?
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Our Jazz CD: The Deanna Jones Orchestra: "Very First Dance"
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Our Christian CD: Jacob's Journey: "A Feather In His Hand"
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parma
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| cnegrad wrote: | | So how do you refute the argument that if developers can't copy protect their software, it isn't worth it to continue making them due to the incredible amount of illegal downloads of kracked versions? |
If Korg wants to use dongles for all their future products (or those that were released already that require a dongle such as the DE) that is perfectly fine with me.
Dongles were around when Korg first released the KLC, but for whatever reason they chose not to use them. Just because they are having second thoughts now doesn't mean they should force a user to buy a separate product in order to run their software now.
They should offer a non-dongled upgrade to those who have the KLC but do not wish to upgrade to the DE. Out of fairness and principle. |
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Sergievsky
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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You know, I highly doubt the Legacy edition are cash cows for Korg. I could just imagine the KLC team pleading earnestly to their scowling superiors to keep putting money into future developments for the products. Then the bosses saying, yeah, but look how much money we're STILL making with the rehashed Triton technology and we're not putting ANY money into developing that! 
And then the KLC folks goes home depressed, then to wash away the sadness hops on the Internet, stops by a few XXX sites, not quite satisfied logs into the Korg Forums to interact with enthusiastic Legacy owners and then WHAM! gets on this thread, reads the negativity, then ends up back into severe depression... 
Well, if purchasing a dongle will help with the continuing development of this wonderful software I'm more than ok with it. (and yes, I know others are not...just wanted a positive feedback for our severely depressed developers!) 
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Raul |
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N.O.W.™
Junior Member
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 63
Location: Kitchener, ON - CANADA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergievsky wrote: | You know, I highly doubt the Legacy edition are cash cows for Korg. I could just imagine the KLC team pleading earnestly to their scowling superiors to keep putting money into future developments for the products. Then the bosses saying, yeah, but look how much money we're STILL making with the rehashed Triton technology and we're not putting ANY money into developing that!
And then the KLC folks goes home depressed, then to wash away the sadness hops on the Internet, stops by a few XXX sites, not quite satisfied logs into the Korg Forums to interact with enthusiastic Legacy owners and then WHAM! gets on this thread, reads the negativity, then ends up back into severe depression...
Well, if purchasing a dongle will help with the continuing development of this wonderful software I'm more than ok with it. (and yes, I know others are not...just wanted a positive feedback for our severely depressed developers!) |
How do you think some of these "cracked" versions get on the internet? Not from some Joe Schmoe sitting at home, but from a disgrunntled employee.
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N.O.W.™ |
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jerrythek
Platinum Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2002
Posts: 2931
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| N.O.W.™ wrote: |
How do you think some of these "cracked" versions get on the internet? Not from some Joe Schmoe sitting at home, but from a disgrunntled employee. |
Not in Korg's case, I can assure you.
Jerry |
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JazzyGB1
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:20 am Post subject: |
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You accept that your Korg poly 800 isn't multi timbral, you accept that your old Ford Sierra doesn't have ABS.
All modern synths are multi timbral & most modern Fords have ABS, but it doesn't mean you expect Korg to upgrade all their old synths any more than you expect Ford to upgrade all thier old cars.
The fact is your dongleless KLC works just fine on your PPC Mac & would continue to do so if you still had it. YOU decided to purchase an Intel Mac, Korg didn't tell you to do so, so any problems you are having are YOUR fault.
You've moved the goal posts - NOT Korg & now you are whinging about it.
I am one of the people desperate for Korg to produce an Intel version of KLC, as I have recently purchased a Mac Pro & really miss using it. I know how frustrating waiting can be.
However stamping your feet & having a little tantrum helps no one. Maybe it would have been more prudent for you to have kept your PPC Mac until the software you wanted to use was available for your new computer.
It seems to me the person you should really be pissed off at is yourself.
Save the Korg bashing for when they deserve it, because in this instance they are guilty of nothing. |
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SARcazm
Junior Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| JazzyGB1 wrote: | You accept that your Korg poly 800 isn't multi timbral, you accept that your old Ford Sierra doesn't have ABS.
All modern synths are multi timbral & most modern Fords have ABS, but it doesn't mean you expect Korg to upgrade all their old synths any more than you expect Ford to upgrade all thier old cars.
The fact is your dongleless KLC works just fine on your PPC Mac & would continue to do so if you still had it. YOU decided to purchase an Intel Mac, Korg didn't tell you to do so, so any problems you are having are YOUR fault.
You've moved the goal posts - NOT Korg & now you are whinging about it.
I am one of the people desperate for Korg to produce an Intel version of KLC, as I have recently purchased a Mac Pro & really miss using it. I know how frustrating waiting can be.
However stamping your feet & having a little tantrum helps no one. Maybe it would have been more prudent for you to have kept your PPC Mac until the software you wanted to use was available for your new computer.
It seems to me the person you should really be pissed off at is yourself.
Save the Korg bashing for when they deserve it, because in this instance they are guilty of nothing. |
Well said!
The product you bought was designed to work on specific platforms, and it worked well on them. The fact that you changed your platform is totally your problem and not Korg's. Korg had already decided on copy protection via a dongle prior to the IntelMacs, so making it obligatory for the UB update is not without precedent.
As an aside (and being a PC user), 2006 has been largely irrelevant for product updates, as most companies have primarily concentrated on UB for a small (but admittedly gorwing) user base, instead of added features.
Roll on 2007 I say, which should see seme really cool stuff coming out...
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max-pol
Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 9
Location: north of France
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| Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| JazzyGB1 wrote: | The fact is your dongleless KLC works just fine on your PPC Mac & would continue to do so if you still had it. YOU decided to purchase an Intel Mac, Korg didn't tell you to do so, so any problems you are having are YOUR fault.
You've moved the goal posts - NOT Korg & now you are whinging about it. |
I respectfully disagree about pretty much all of the above.
When I used to buy hardware synths, Alesis reverbs, and when I buy a car today, I don't find those products linked to other aspects of my life, irrelevant to said product.
my Alesis Midiverb 2 still serves me well after 19 years, and this is because it is not subordinate to my sequencer or any other tool in the studio: thankfully quarter inch jacks are still compatible today
Your argument of comparing to your car is not a fully fledged comparison. It would be if your car could only operate properly provided you still lived at the adress you declared when buying the car, and still use it to do the same route to your workplace. any change to home or work adress would render your car unusable. THat's a fair comparison.
Thankfully a car allows for much more freedom, and it "updates" itself to allow you driving from your new home to your new place of work silently and effortlessly. hardware is expensive, but lasts much longer than software because it can ADAPT to our changing circumstances.
Audio Plugins, Alas, do not enjoy the same freedom and therefore do not let us enjoy the same freedom.
Audio plugins are at the very end of a food chain that starts with your workstation, then your operating system, then your audio host, then yourother plugins and then "it". It has to be at peace with all of the abovein order to let you enjoy it without trouble.
So what If I decided to buy a new mac because only that one will run the new version of my host that fixes a longstanding bug that prevents me from working??? does this qualify as "my choice" or is it just one of the many tweaks I have to make to get everything running "as advertized"?
Or what if it's because my day job (done on the same computer) needs me to install and run another app that is only compatible with the new machine???
I cannot be asked to keep a second/third computer just for a little plugin, no?
Also, I get tired of comparisons between brick/mortar stuff and software. It is not the same. It's a different world and when I'm buying software, I realize it's the ultimate "perishable before you're done with it consumer goods". I realize that none of the current artists will be able to revisit their current work if they leave it in their DAW, because it'll be impossible to restore a complete 2006 computer system in 2040. Impossible to re-authorize the plugins, to get anything installed without a major hassle... unless people start freezing computers in their garage, which is a completely bogus proposition.
Sure, software is cheaper, and allows multiple instances, and weight zero in your luggage. This is why I bother. The computer-based studio has new rules, like quick change. This is sometimes good for the developpers. It has to remain good for users.
This is not, however, a rant against KORG. I know KLC didn't sell like mad. I know the intel update is costly and throughout the world people are spending time on this they'd rather spend on something else. But a plugin cannot be blocking someone from updating it's main apps for half a year, without it looking bad.
Strangely, though, the major DAW apps were updated AGES AGO. all of them. And they are made of dozens of times more computer code than plugins are, and often come from fairly small companies... weird, that....
I paid around $450 for my KLC. Now it is being sold for $140 (new, in store) and widely available here in France at this price. So I cannot even resell this investment because it has lost 80% of its value.
This too is "the new world". It would never have happened with my older car, because car prices never go down that much in so little time.
yours
maxpol |
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