Korg Forums

Kevin Nolan · Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:43 pm Post subject:

I realise this thread is fading and perhaps best left so, but I have just read it and thought it worth making a few points. I am an OASYS owner, and a huge fan of the instrument, none the less I recognise it (and indeed all instruments) have shortcomings, and will not 'load' my arguments here in favour of it.

Ricky and Lars probably represent a significant point of view. Indeed perhaps the majority of people in electronic music feel this way. Firstly, the Price/Performance of the OASYS is a genuine issue - it is very expensive. And when you look at the OASYS specs, as capable as they are, there is little that probably couldn't be substituted, there about, by cheaper computer based alternatives. Surely Korg are aware of this. One wonders if 'economies of scale' could have kicked in if the OASYS could have been released at a price more accessible to all? Perhaps, however, Korg kept it high to give it elitist status. Yamaha have probably done the same in the past with the likes of the DX1 and VL1. I'm not against such a policy (if indeed pursued).

I find it interesting the Ricky has an M3 in his studio. I actually watched your you-tube overview of your studio. It’s interesting that you have so many digital pianos - clearly they are an important item to you. But would I be right is suggesting that you like things to be a bit 'organic' if you get my drift - at any rate you don’t seem to need to impress with flashing lights and all of that. Hence would I be close to the mark in suggesting that the OASYS is not for you because it’s too much the 'boy's toy' instrument, rather than something that could blend into your environment quite naturally? In any case, Ricky, it does look to me that you at least highly rate the OASYS derived M3, suggesting to me that its price and perhaps the style of the OASYS that do not appeal to you, rather than the OASYS fundamentally failing to appeal. I suspect if the OASYS were cheaper you'd be interested?

As for Lars, your tone is definitely hostile. I’m the first to come clean here and say that on other forums I’ve posted hostile posts when I believe passionately about something. I ALWAYS regret being hostile, but I admit to have been a guilty as anyone at sending such posts. Anyway, Lars, I'm not trying to give you a ‘lesson for life’ or 'coded message of understanding' here - just to acknowledge the hostility of your posts but that I've been there. That said, your claim that the OASYS is average is not, in all fairness, correct. I'm not going to try to prove to you that the OASYS is better and all of that debate; but it is definitely at least 'above average'. When compared to other instruments in production, it is above average, at least, in most categories.

I've also thought a lot about your posts and I suggest this - the OASYS samples, and their programming, are, at a minimum, very good. In fact, I’d genuinely argue that they are as good, and in many cases better, than some reputable dedicated sample packages. Up until recently I owned East West Gold. I have now upgraded to East West Platinum Pro XP. I found Gold to be about OK. I was actually disappointed in its basic sample quality and lack-lustre feel. And while Platinum Pro XP is excellent, it has cost me thousands of Euro! Also - I used MOTU's Symphonic Instrument recently and found it to be extremely cheesy – I mean its absolutely awful. So its not universally the case that 30Gig sample packages are better than the likes of the OASYS or top Motifs.

Then there's RMX Stylus. While an excellent rhythm package, its samples are nowhere near as good as the OASYS's drum and percussion samples. I accept that there is a genuine case to make that computer based solution may be cheaper and more desirable, but I suggest its inaccurate to place the OASYS below par in all of these respects – its on balance very strong in these departments, and a significant and obviously noticeable improvement on the likes of the older Motifs and Tritons.

I'm not trying to make a point of one better than the other, only to indicate that the OASYS, and indeed many of the top workstations, possess very respectable sample sets indeed, especially when you consider their detailed programming. I’d actually genuinely argue that the OASYS (or latest Motif) could give all but East West Platinum and Vienna Instruments an excellent run for their money. Overall, the OASYS is well above average when it comes to sample based workstations, and indeed dedicated sample sets but the very best ones costing the same as the OASYS itself. Even if I'm a bit too optimistic in saying this, I think it is reasonable to say that the OASYS is at least extremely respectable in this department. The worst case is that its missing some sampled instruments, but those on board are of very high and respectable quality indeed.

Another point that Lars makes that reads quite scathing but I don't on reflection buy into is casting dispersions on the OASYS because his clients do not ask for it. Here, Lars – I would ask why should they ask for it. Since virtually the entire musical world is unaware of OASYS, this is not surprising, and says nothing in particular about its quality.

Concerning Dan and his passion for OASYS, it again seems to Ricky and Lars that that is somehow a negative point. I don't get that. To me, the fact that Dan has driven OASYS and is so passionate about it is a wondrous and positive dimension to this instrument. OK, Dan’s passion does not make OASYS somehow better, but how many faceless organisations release instruments that seem altogether too anonymous. Dan's (and Stephen's) love and passion for OASYS and Karma are truly fascinating and exciting to me. They put a human face on what is after all a musical instrument, and that provides a whole new dimension to this instrument. What's more, they love to communicate and share their passion on forums like this with its users. Now I have never met Dan and Stephen and have no particular allegiance to them, but I have to tell you that their passion for this instrument brings a whole new human dimension to the instrument that I've never come across before. I find all of their communications and posts to be utterly professional and extremely balanced and objective, taking their position into account. I also find genuinely interesting that Korg are happy for such interaction. OK there may be more cynical commercial reasons, but I think it’s also reasonable to assume that there's a cultural dimension to all of this which Korg are happy to be part of. And while Korg is a commercial entity and must balance the profit and loss sheet, it is at least trying to do something with open architecture, even if not the most profitable of strategies. Furthermore, as a beta tester for 1.2, I found it very intriguing to be part of a group of general users contributing to future enhancements to the instrument. Again I know none of this makes for better ‘bits-bytes and sample rates’; but it adds an entirely new dimension to the life of a musical instrument that's unprecedented and hopefully points at least partially towards the future in a world of global cooperation using online networking. And even if the OASYS ultimately fails, isn't is important that there's a company prepared to try this sort of venture?

Concerning such debates, I believe they are valuable when constructive, but when bitter and vindictive they are extremely worrying. Consider this - musicians outside of electronic music (i.e. most of the music world), do not give a damn about synthesizers and computer music technology. I work a lot with orchestral players and composers, and not one of them ever, ever give the sorts of things we're passionate about any thought whatsoever. Indeed, as even film composing reveals where the types of scores Vangelis wrote for Bladeruner or 1492 shows, synthesizers are tolerated less and less in these days of gigantic sample libraries and cheaper orchestras. They are increasingly relegated in their role in professional music, and there are very few people looking out for the future development - and I mean real and innovative development - of synthesizers, hardware or software. Often in such arguments I suggest we are biting off our nose to spite our face. There can be no winner if we're prepared to become irrational in our argument (remember the Yamaha EX5 debacle).

But there is a defence of the OASYS's technical and musical capabilities. I say this as an owner who took a big risk in paying for an OASYS - for a full year I was extremely sceptical about buying one. And the defence is utterly subjective I admit. And its this – virtually all who have bought and OASYS have fallen in love with it. Why? Because there are legitimate depths and dimensions to it that we have never come across before. With the greatest of respect to those who have not bought one but who have claimed to have spent a lot of time on it – you simply have not put in enough hours, and you have not taken a decision to commit the OASYS to your work environment. For those of us who have, the enormity of programmability from Karma to Vector and Wave sequencing to Modular Synthesis…all merged together in an optimised and tightly integrated environment, provides a flexibility hitherto encountered (I own 3 CS80s, 2 T8s, a Prophet10, K2500XS, a DX1, 2 SY99s, 2 SY77s, a VL1….., as well as Logic Pro, Platinum ProXP…) and the OASYS genuinely provides to me a unique and new vista of synthesis and music creation. It has massive shortcomings – but so does every instrument. Its shortcomings are not a reason not to own it; but is capabilities – of which I am barely scratching the surface – are a significant and earnest challenge that will prove utterly vital to my electronic music for a long time to come. I can only say that having owned it for nearly two years.

Overall, I think the biggest issue with OASYS is its price. If the OASYS had been a few grand cheaper, I think it could have been a truly land mark instrument. It will never gain wide acceptance because its simply too expensive. Except - and I'd be interested in the US versus EU/UK opinion on this - in the US it’s priced at about $8000, which translates to about £4000 and 6000 Euro. I wonder if the weakness of the US dollar is making the OASYS seem more expensive to US buyers than to those in UK/Europe. They are all the same price I know, but if you're in the UK and an OASYS is £4000, it just doesn't sound (or perhaps seem) as expensive as $8000?
_________________
Kevin Nolan
KNECT
Email: knolan@knect.ie
WWW: www.knect.ie

ricky recordo · Guest

MartinHines · Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:01 am Post subject:

ski · Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:58 am Post subject:

Kevin,

I'd like to chime in and say that I really admire the amount of thought that went into your very detailed and intelligent response to this thread.

=sKi=

EJ2 · Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject:

Kevin,
Well put, my friend. Most, if not all OASYS users really don't need to defend or justify their ownership. But, for some reason, we still do now and then. Just the same, I feel we of the O-Club were/are fortunate enough to have had the will and the way to garner this beauty into of studios.

Ricky, thinking KARMA is a toy is like thinking high powered desktop computers are nothing more than calculators for crunching numbers. Rolling Eyes

I can appreciate the "roll your own" technique as quite valid and productive for music generation. I use it myself on occasion. However, from my perspective and experience going beyond presets into the depths of KARMA technology, I know you're missing tons, my friend. Oh, by the way, I really enjoyed the video tour of your place. Quite a collection you have.

Cheers,
Eric
_________________
Cheers,
Jim (aka EJ2) Karma-Lab Associate Combi Developer

CATALYST v 2 Blast of Inspiration for KRONOS & OASYS: http://www.karma-lab.com/sounds/catalyst2.html
CATALYST v 1 Combi Explosion for KRONOS, OASYS, M3, & K-M50: http://www.karma-lab.com/sounds/catalyst1.html
CHEMISTRY 3, a Groove Injection for Your Karma: http://www.karma-lab.com/sounds/chem3.html
SoundCloud MP3 Demoshttps://soundcloud.com/ej2-sc

rkarlberg · Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject:

Exactly, KARMA is worth a few thousand just for what it brings to the Oasys. There are thousand of preset patterns, plus the programmability and flexibility is astounding.

When you add all the pieces together, the Oasys is worth at least $20,000. Sure, you could try to approximate all the functionality with other software packages, but the total cost would be much higher, and you would not have a tightly integrated system.

XVampireX · Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject:

Maybe Korg could develop a different profit business model for the Oasys, for example sell it for about 4,000/5,000 and instead sell the OS versions for 1,000 each for example?

nitecrawler · Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:56 am Post subject:

Kevin Nolan wrote:I wonder if the weakness of the US dollar is making the OASYS seem more expensive to US buyers than to those in UK/Europe. They are all the same price I know, but if you're in the UK and an OASYS is £4000, it just doesn't sound (or perhaps seem) as expensive as $8000?

Maybe, but the price has been consistant since introduction in '05. Con sidering the weakness of the dollar recently, it actually is "cheaper" because the price has not gone up. That said, it is a big number and makes the instrument only available to those that can afford it. Is this a good or bad thing? I guess it would depend on your perspective. I'm an owner and I justified my purchase because I could afford it and I wanted to purchase an instrument that inspired my imagination and would NOT be available to everyone. This instrument allows owners to develop their own individual instrument sound that can be unique. That sounds somewhat elitist, but I wanted to incorporate sounds to my projects that, honestly, didn't sound like everyone else.

Kevin, thanks for your post. I found it a good read.

Regards, Nitecrawler Smile

ricky recordo · Guest

MartinHines · Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject:

danatkorg · Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject:

LarsVonMeyer · Guest

Gentlemen:
Hate to add any more wood to the fire, but Yellow Tools have just released a 2 GB sampler that costs a staggering....................nought.
[url]
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=190855&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0[/url]
www.yellowtools.com/

And if you can be bothered to download it, you will find that a lot of the sounds are actually better sounding than the stuff in the $8000 Oasys.

How about that Korg - keep up with the competition - how about letting us download some free Tritons (just joking).