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danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA
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 Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Daz wrote: | | Hows does a waveshaper work ... tricky one to explain. Are you familiar with the Karma note mapping tables ? It kinda works like that. With the note mapping table you can specify how incoming notes should be mapped to outgoing notes. So you might specify that a C4 coming in maps to A6 going out, a C5 is mapped to G5, an A4 to a F#5 etc. etc. A waveshaper works similarly but acts on individual sample points of an input waveform, mapping their amplitude to a new value which is then output. As a waveform, in digital audio terms, is just a stream of numbers representing the amplitude at a given point in time, if you start remapping those numbers to different numbers in realtime the result is that you will change the shape of the waveform. |
It's also worth noting that the mapping of input to output points can be changed in two ways, both of which are modulatable. "Drive" controls the gain going into the table, and "Offset" adds or subtracts DC offset from the input signal before going into the table. This lets you map the input to different parts of the table, which can change the sound dramatically. Modulating Drive with an EG or LFO can produce neat sounds, sometimes similar in character to filter sweeps, sometimes something else entirely.
There's a graphic in the manual & help system that shows how this works....
- Dan
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Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
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tonecre8
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Daz wrote: | Thanks 
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On the V-Synth ..
How off topic was that ? |
Daz, thanks for the tips on the GT (obviously you have one). Over the last couple of nights I've been trying your approach but I can't quite get the nice clean tones that you show in your mp3 (as basic as you feel it is ). Furthermore I can't quite grasp the concept of getting FM to give me anything more than clanky, metallic, bell sounds.
Don't really want to clog this thread up with GT programming (as it's turning into a great resource), but I'm really daunted at the thought of VPM on the Oasys seeing how I can't quite exhaust the 4 operator GT. I find that when I have too many options I don't approach things with a specific objective or direction and too much randomness and guess work occurs. I'm truly impressed with sound designers such as Ski, yourself (and anyone else) that can program a sound that they hear in their minds ear. Espescially on the "O" 
Hopefully once we see the release some further sharing of techniques and sounds will continue. |
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Daz
Retired
Joined: 01 Jan 2002
Posts: 10829
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| tonecre8 wrote: | | Furthermore I can't quite grasp the concept of getting FM to give me anything more than clanky, metallic, bell sounds. |
LOL ... you know that's actually a good thing and not a bad thing That's only the starting point, don't be disheartened yet. When you start with FM, just using two sine oscs, everything sounds like fricking bells But that really isn't all it does, honest. The next step is to start using more interesting stuff as the modulator. With a real FM synth you might start using feedback or another modulator attached to first modulator to get more timbres from the carrier.
You can't do that on the V-Synth, so instead you need to use maybe a pulse wave for Osc2 and mess with the pulse width and the fat control to add more interest to the sound and escape the dreaded bell like tones. Maybe I should post an adapted version of yesterdays sound that uses something others than a sine as the modulator.
Funnily enough, this has come on topic. When people first start using MOD-7 to create sounds they are going to hit the same wall, the wall of bells and clanky sounds and have to progress to using more interesting modulators. So this is informative hopefully.
{edit : another important to look at when everything just sound bell like is how you have the modulator detuned from the carrier. Experiment with different values (or ratios on MOD-7) }
Daz. |
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Mike Conway
Approved Merchant
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2433
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
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tonecre8
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| Love that FM modulated French horn sample... Am I correct that this was constructed with some form of PCM sample? What am I really hearing in this sound that would jump out at you saying "That's an FM modulated sample"? That's the type of sound I would love to be able to create! Are these the types of sound that would be covered by VPM? |
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ski
Independent Sound Designer for Korg
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 496
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:24 am Post subject: |
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FM makes clanky bell sounds if you set your carrier and modulator frequencies to certain values, and, your envelopes are set to give you clanky bell shapes! But there's so much more to it...
You can make very analog-style sounds with FM... sounds that are sometimes "more than analog" or "hyper-analog". Some of the sounds that Mike posted will give you an idea of that. It's easy to achieve triangle, saw, square simulations with FM using just two VPM's (i.e., a "carrier/modulator pair") doing sine waves. If you set up the same sound on two carrier/modulator pairs and detune them from one another, you can simulate a dual oscillator analog synth. And those sounds may or may not require any filtering to get analog-style filter sweeps!
Some FM-generated analog synth simulations have a character that's different from true analog, but it's not like that's necessarily a bad thing. Character is character.
Staying with the single carrier/modulator pair... with certain combinations of frequencies between the carrier and modulator you can easily achieve bells, marimba, all kinds of metallic sounds. If you configure additional modulators, depending on the frequencies they're set to and their envelope shapes, you can create some very natural sounding simulations of instruments that can skirt the line between a traditional analog synth imitation of a real sound and a sample of that sound.
Or, forget about imitative synthesis altogether and FM becomes a great way to create atmospheres and other-worldly ambiences. And when you throw waveshaping into the mix, or add PCM (or process PCM through a waveshaper), the possibilities for creating unique sounds (that aren't necessarily metallic or bell-like) are enormous.
[edited for clarity]
Last edited by ski on Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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domc
Full Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 137
Location: London
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:31 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Daz - again I hadn't appreciated you could just turn off the sine wave just leaving the waveshaper as an effect - but that makes perfect sense.
| Daz wrote: | | domc wrote: | | and then finally ring modulation. |
It's much like the Ring Modulator you'll find in the AL-1 and MS20EX EXi, if you're familiar with those.
A ringmod multiplies the two incoming signals together and then outputs the result. LOL, the classic explanation which is almost completely impossible to get a handle on. The other explanation of ringmod is that the output is the sum and the difference of the frequencies of the two inputs. Again, not that easy to get a handle on, however it does tell you one key thing; the ring mod does interesting stuff when the two inputs are different frequencies to one another. So you should dial up an AL-1 instance and in the mixer turn down the level of the 2 oscillators to 0 and turn up the ring mod level and then start playing with different amounts of detuning between OSC1 and OSC2 to hear the effect the ring modulator has. It's definitely one of those things you need to hear rather than read about. Whatever you learn in AL-1 will carry across to the MS20EX and MOD-7.
Daz. |
Yeh I think I need to do some more practice. I've read those explanations before - and played around with it on the AL-1, but never really grasped how to control the sounds and hence when it might be useful to apply in sound design.
Cheers, Domc
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Kronos 88
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Mike Conway
Approved Merchant
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2433
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| tonecre8 wrote: | | Love that FM modulated French horn sample... Am I correct that this was constructed with some form of PCM sample? What am I really hearing in this sound that would jump out at you saying "That's an FM modulated sample"? That's the type of sound I would love to be able to create! Are these the types of sound that would be covered by VPM? |
Yes, MOD 7 can do that! That french horn was an old 12 bit sample, from my TX16W sampler. It is a good example of using FM distortion to create a "stronger' attack. Since the distortion can be shaped with envelopes and modulated, there are all sorts of possibilities. It takes a static sample and makes it more expressive. (You can apply this to the attack bow of a string, for example.)
You can also use the extra FM oscillators to add harmonics, even without the distortion. This new engine is a godsend, for someone like me. |
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domc
Full Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 137
Location: London
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| ski wrote: |
PCM can be used as an audio source (i.e., connected to the mixer), but it can't be modulated by a VPM or noise. So although it can be connected to the mixer directly and heard, it can't be modulated in the traditional FM sense by another oscillator (or noise). So it wouldn't be considered a "carrier". But it could be used as a modulator.
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One last thing really for Mike Conway - I see over in HC that you thought that PCM could be used as a carrier by hooking it up to a VPM and turning the ratio to 0 and then modulating it with the other input. This seemed to be different to what ski was saying so I was wondering whether by hooking it up as you were saying that it got round that limitation.
Cheers, Domc
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AnthonyB
Platinum Member
Joined: 22 Jun 2003
Posts: 755
Location: Great Britain
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure if this had already been mentioned, but will Version 1.3 also add the MOD-7 etc to the online "help" - so its always there to refer to - if you want?.
Cheers
AnthonyB
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Drew FM
Platinum Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 515
Location: Fenton, MI U.S.A
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: Call it ESP |
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| Daz wrote: | | Drew FM wrote: | | I need an FM Synth with total control over carriers, modulators & feedback, not just a predefined set of 'algorithms'. |
Oh yes That would be excellent and not just two ops like in the VPM stuff, but a handful of them.
Daz. |
Good job with the poker face Daz!
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Daz
Retired
Joined: 01 Jan 2002
Posts: 10829
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Call it ESP |
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| Drew FM wrote: | | Daz wrote: | | Drew FM wrote: | | I need an FM Synth with total control over carriers, modulators & feedback, not just a predefined set of 'algorithms'. |
Oh yes That would be excellent and not just two ops like in the VPM stuff, but a handful of them.
Daz. |
Good job with the poker face Daz! |
LOL Actually that was back in April that we talked and I didn't know about MOD-7 then ... so you can imagine how happy I was when I did find out about it. |
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danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| AnthonyB wrote: | Not sure if this had already been mentioned, but will Version 1.3 also add the MOD-7 etc to the online "help" - so its always there to refer to - if you want?.
Cheers
AnthonyB |
Yes. The online help is generated directly from the manuals, and includes everything in both the Parameter and Operation Guides, except for full-size screen shots and a few large graphics and tables which wouldn't fit onto the screen. As with previous releases, the manuals and help system have been extensively updated for 1.3, including not only new features but also improvements to older content.
One small thing which should help usability: I've added "Next page" links at the bottom of every page in the help system, which should make it easier to read through larger portions of the text.
Best regards,
Dan
_________________
Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
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Drew FM
Platinum Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 515
Location: Fenton, MI U.S.A
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| danatkorg wrote: | | AnthonyB wrote: | Not sure if this had already been mentioned, but will Version 1.3 also add the MOD-7 etc to the online "help" - so its always there to refer to - if you want?.
Cheers
AnthonyB |
Yes. The online help is generated directly from the manuals, and includes everything in both the Parameter and Operation Guides, except for full-size screen shots and a few large graphics and tables which wouldn't fit onto the screen. As with previous releases, the manuals and help system have been extensively updated for 1.3, including not only new features but also improvements to older content.
One small thing which should help usability: I've added "Next page" links at the bottom of every page in the help system, which should make it easier to read through larger portions of the text.
Best regards,
Dan |
Bravo, Dan! the 'next page' link will definetly make the usability of this feature easier for me! Thank YOU!!! 
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Drew FM
Platinum Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 515
Location: Fenton, MI U.S.A
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Call it ESP |
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| Daz wrote: | | Drew FM wrote: | | Daz wrote: | | Drew FM wrote: | | I need an FM Synth with total control over carriers, modulators & feedback, not just a predefined set of 'algorithms'. |
Oh yes That would be excellent and not just two ops like in the VPM stuff, but a handful of them.
Daz. |
Good job with the poker face Daz! |
LOL Actually that was back in April that we talked and I didn't know about MOD-7 then ... so you can imagine how happy I was when I did find out about it. |
You MIGHT have been slightly more excitied than me! Little rivers of anticipation ran down my inseam, when I first heard it confirmed! 
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