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Oasys update 1.3, cant believe it!
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jerrythek
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow - a lot of assumptions about our goals and priorities, and I truly sympathize with your frustrations. But there's no need to fight amongst yourselves over this.

We've been pretty candid about the responsibilities of the various groups on this project, and the Korg R&D group lives to generate new forms of synthesis. So we keep them firing on all burners, and OASYS is their main "baby". Why not allow them to keep doing the brilliant work they're capable of?

Korg Inc, on the other hand, has to balance many more projects and divides their time/man-power amongst them. That in no way means that we don't care about our sequencer design, or the OASYS etc., but their developments might come a bit slower.

And then there's KARMA, which is the domain of Stephen, but also makes demands on others, not just his personal innovations. They have to be integrated into the system.

So these all factor together into the workload of a release. And 1.3 is a very large release that took a ton of work from everyone involved.

I promise you that we talk about and plan/prioritize all aspects of the system, and sequencer design issues remain alive and well. I can't say when but I can promise you that we have no master plan that ignores your wishes in this area (which we share!).

I know - it seems like empty words without a real date, or actual plans but I can't do that. I can only tell you that you are being listened to, respected, and taken seriously. OK?

regards,

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Kontrol49
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jerrythek wrote:
Wow - a lot of assumptions about our goals and priorities, and I truly sympathize with your frustrations. But there's no need to fight amongst yourselves over this.

We've been pretty candid about the responsibilities of the various groups on this project, and the Korg R&D group lives to generate new forms of synthesis. So we keep them firing on all burners, and OASYS is their main "baby". Why not allow them to keep doing the brilliant work they're capable of?

Korg Inc, on the other hand, has to balance many more projects and divides their time/man-power amongst them. That in no way means that we don't care about our sequencer design, or the OASYS etc., but their developments might come a bit slower.

And then there's KARMA, which is the domain of Stephen, but also makes demands on others, not just his personal innovations. They have to be integrated into the system.

So these all factor together into the workload of a release. And 1.3 is a very large release that took a ton of work from everyone involved.

I promise you that we talk about and plan/prioritize all aspects of the system, and sequencer design issues remain alive and well. I can't say when but I can promise you that we have no master plan that ignores your wishes in this area (which we share!).

I know - it seems like empty words without a real date, or actual plans but I can't do that. I can only tell you that you are being listened to, respected, and taken seriously. OK?

regards,

Jerry



I Don't think anyone underestimates Korg efforts,and these things take time to come together.

Just wondered,with the Sequencer aspect how much emphasis was placed on its development prior to the Oasys package being built up,I mean not much has evolved in the Sequencers since the Days of the Trinityover 10 yeasr ago,infact hardly anything has advanced over the Triton,apart from a higher IFX count and the aditional HDR,was it felt that the Seq Platform didn't need any further enhancements at the Planning stage,or do any of the Designers actually use it at all for real composing other than just research possibilities,On a Users point of view,yes its usuable,but its simply light years behind the actual developments of a sequencer in this day and age.

The Exi's development is obviously a High priority,and who wouldn't blame you to keep up the stature to showcase the Abillities of the Additional engines,I just think that something so trivial like the sequencer sort of rocks the boat with many users,yet it should have been given a serious and radical shake up after the Triton Series,espcially given the Workstation it was to be utilised in,its pretty Lightweight for todays standards.it just seems that perhaps al the efforts went into the Engines/Sound Quality,and the sequencer was just bolted on at the last minute due to no more time to look into its development.

no-ones Dismissing the sequencer,in its standard form,its easy enough to use,but its also lackustre,for a synth like the Oasys and I think this is a crux to bare for every owner.Its not acceptable in this technology of today to still have to rely on external Software or means to manipulate the Oasys to your songs full potential.I'd like to do that all on the Oasys.

Just wondered as a developers of the Workstations do any of you guys ever use it(The sequencer)????and if so whats your own Thoughts on its abilities or lack of them,surely many of you must use some software Sequencers,how do you find the Oasys sits against those...

I've always have been sceptical of the Sequencers since the Trinity,I always find it so demeaning that the majority of the people whom do the demos songs for the workstation,don't actually utilise the Internal Sequencer for those songs,which begs the Question,if so why??Stephen Kay who has said in a previous thread elsewhere that he prefers to use external Means,now surely the Whole workstation concept shouldn't need to permit that
Don't you guys ever wonder why???
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billysynth1
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thnks Jerry
That's what we wanted to hear and we all respect you for coming in and making your comments. I want the Oasys project to survive and live on for years - in terms of music and synths being a significant part of my life the Oasys is the best thing that has ever happened to me.

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Mike Conway
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kontrol49 wrote:
You'd soon see that a few Extra VPM Sounds are not really that important


This new update has been extremely important to me! Most of my music/sound design has revolved around FM. I have owned the DX7, TX816, SY77, SY99 and MOSS VPM; the new MOD 7 engine mostly encompasses and expands on their abilities. Before I bought an OASYS, some sort of VPM engine has been my top wish. I didn't realize it would be fulfilled with such gusto!



Quote:
I have never utilised the Sequencer since I've bought it,it just restricts me,and thats coming from someone who knows the Sequencer inside out???


I'm not disagreeing that it needs some enhancements. Depending on where you come from, it could take some serious getting used to, but I did that (I have over 150 songs on it). I pretty much do whatever I desire with it. So many people look at the vertical layout of the MIDI Event Editor and say, "forget it." I took it on. Though it was similar to the Triton, the display pages are so much better.

The sysex recording makes it far superior to a Triton/Trinity sequencer. I had 2 Tritons and could not do volume/mixer changes, etc, like the OASYS can do with ease.

During my scoring of THE AWAKENING, I used both the Roland Fantom and the Korg OASYS sequencers (more than 20 songs on each). I wish the OASYS had the Velocity, Gate percentage functions of the Fantom and SY99, as well as some other tools (so I don't have to make per note edits). However, the bus system and sysex abilities of the OASYS make it the better sequencer tool, for myself. (I'll stress "myself.")



Kontrol49 wrote:
I'm sure with enough time I could do all the composing within the oasys,but the problem of it,is one of workflow,theres a constant need to exit pages to further screens???



That has been addressed in the new update. The MIDI Event Editor now stays open, while you play your song and make edits (note duration, moving, velocity, etc.). No more making a single change and having to exit the window to see if your edit works. This litttle 1.3. add on seems to be getting ignored, but it is huge for workflow. It helped quite a bit when I scored the EXILE trailer. Wink



Give me the piano roll screen and some more editing functions. That's what I want. Sina says that the current resolution can't fully replicate KARMA, so up the res. Some people want an overhaul, but I have to stress that I want my current songs to be compatible.
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Francois
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As much as I can understand the argument for a revamped sequencer, I still don't understand why people would want to use that of the Oasys for more than a sketchpad to lay down ideas quickly. There is SO MUCH more you can do with a software sequencer like Logic, Sonar, Cubase... even compared with good hardware examples such as the MPC, MV8xxx.

Personally, I would be more interested in seeing a workstation that gives you 16 fx inserts so the outboard gear is only used with the console to process what comes out the various sound sources.
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Davidb
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry,
Thanx so much for posting about this subject
That was exactly what we all wanted to hear, really, that you all hear and take in consideration all we have been saying about the Oasys sequencer.

See, I think I can speak for most of us saying that we realize that is not possible nor objetive thinking about having something like Cubase into de Oasys, I think that is clear for everyone, or it might.

But... looking at the sequencer alongside the rest of the advances made in every other areas, the user realizes as well that this is a missed chance for a system like this.
With a 10´4 colour touch screen, 16 audio track already implemented, the amount of onboard effects availible, this fantastic control surface to handle everything, etc, ... and more processing power than never before in a WS, as well as a system open to upgrade, ... the Oasys has everything necessary to have a great sequencer with the facilities it provides, never shown in any worstation before.

With some effort focused on the right direction the Oasys *could* improve some aspects of the sequencer mode (more editing functions, more resolution, and so on, the list is aready there, its not long) to match the other astoundig capabilities this instrument already has. This will make the workflow composing within the instrument smoother, and make the whole instrument a more complete worstation.
Doing so, the Oasys would become the best and most complete electronic musical instrument never released. (Certainly is now, in most of the other areas)

This is the feedback we (at least I) want to give to Korg.

Anyway, its fantastic to know that you are listening and you are aware that this is an important area to fix, no matter when. Very Happy

Thanx again, as usual, for being here to listen and to understand. Smile
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EJ2
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
THOSE OF YOU THAT HAVE A SEQUENCER ALREADY AND/OR ARE MORE FOCUSED ON EXi'S, STAY OUT OF IT! THIS DOESN"T APPLY TO YOU!!!!!


Sorry, Sina. All OASYS threads apply to all OASYS owners. It doesn't matter whether some of us record to an external sequencer, or whether some of us record live to an external hard disk recorder, or whether we use a combination of recording to OASYS sequencer, thence to OASYS hard disk recorder, thence to external gear or software, etc., etc.

I don't find the OASYS sequencer and hard disk recording all that difficult to work with. So, I fully concur with Korg's direction for the OASYS in rolling out sounds. Isn't that what an instrument is for - sounds. Frankly, I'd rather Korg continue in this manner and I really don't care how long it takes to see a top of the line sequencer in the O, if ever. Give me tools for sonic creation and creativity a la STR-1, LAC-1, and now MOD-7. As Jerry so aptly put it:
Quote:
We've been pretty candid about the responsibilities of the various groups on this project, and the Korg R&D group lives to generate new forms of synthesis. So we keep them firing on all burners, and OASYS is their main "baby". Why not allow them to keep doing the brilliant work they're capable of?

Please don't you kid yourself in thinking that those of us who feel this way are in the minority. I honestly believe there is a silent majority who enjoy making music with their OASYS regardless of the sequencer. And we look forward to the new sonic tools the Korg R&D can deliver for us.

In the end, neither you, nor Martin, (nor I for that matter) speak for the rest of us. For that reason, I believe a reasonable debate on what OASYS users would like to see in the next update is always warranted. Telling others to stay out of particular threads is not.

Cheers,
Eric
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry -

I can only speak for myself here and I hope this doesn't across OTT because I mean it in a pragmatic sense - your post above is extremely refreshing. Irrespective of the outcomes of future developments for OASYS, your frankness and openness on this thread are probably unprecedented on any such forum. There are many other forums with members/users tearing their hair out with frustration - not necessarily because of feature issues, but often because those producing the technology remain utterly silent at all times.

Korg must balance a profit and loss sheet at the end of the day, but you're willingness to engage with users in such an open manner is (to me) very inspiring and enthusing in itself.

It will be fantastic is OASYS eventually gets a sequencer update, but even if for all the reasons you indicate Korg are kept from getting around to it, I personally find it equally exciting that we on this forum are, in actuality, listened to and taken seriously.

Fair dues to you for communicating that.

Kevin.
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Davidb
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Nolan wrote:

your post above is extremely refreshing.

It will be fantastic is OASYS eventually gets a sequencer update, but even if for all the reasons you indicate Korg are kept from getting around to it, I personally find it equally exciting that we on this forum are, in actuality, listened to and taken seriously.

Fair dues to you for communicating that.


Ditto, my friend.
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MartinHines
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

domc wrote:
Fine to speak for yourself - but I don't think you can talk for the majority of people. And nor can I. There are plenty of threads on this forum, where a seq update is a high priority item for many people (including myself) so I don't think you can realistically pretend that your opinion is the prevailing one.


Domc,

I intrepreted Universal's post as ("why hasn't Korg updated the Sequencer since it has been two years?") as a question which I attempted to answer.

Given Jerry K's post, you can be assured that people from Korg do read these posts, so at least you are being heard.


Davidb wrote:
There are, as noted, a huge number of threads about the Oasys Sequencer and almost the 90% of the Oasys users comments come to the same point, in a way or another:
The Sequencer need some inprovement.


Davidb,

One other point to consider is that the total number of people who post here and at Karma Lab probably represents a minority number of OASYS owners. I would guess that there are no more than 100 OASYS owners who post (just a wild guess) and there are at least 3,000 OASYS owners (if the "my OASYS twin" thread at Karma Lab is even somewhat accurate). I have always assumed that Korg collects product feedback from a number of sources.

I think it would be great if the Sequencer had some modifications. At the same time, I don't think people should get their hopes up for a "complete re-write" since electronic music manufacturers don't seem to operate that way. From my perspective, the majority of a product's functionality appears to be determined at product launch, with moderate modifications following over a few years' period.


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tritex4
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edit

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Sina172
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...........

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Charlie
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I use the sequencer of the Oasys and no other at all. I used to run Cubase VST on a Power Mac befor I got my Oasys. The decision for spending so much money on one instrument was based on the idea having a stand-alone unit and no other gear to switch on/off, maintain, plug and unplug, install software updates etc. So somehow I believe I'm a member of the original customer target group. Wink

As I had no Triton befor, getting into using this sequencer was EXTREMLY frustrating. I could hardly start recording in the beginning. Crying or Very sad However - now I'm with Mike: once you've stumbled through all the difficulties you get used to it and it does its job well. Some things are definitly less comfortable as on an average software sequencer - but the integration makes up for that and therefor some things are much more comfortable than having an external sequencer. Wink

Was I angry when I learnt 1.3 offers no major improvements for the sequencer? No - not at all. I didn't expect any major changes for the sequencer. The basic structure (16 Midi, 16 Audio) has to stay the same - rewriting the code would simply not pay off. Similar is true for major changes in the user-interface (like piano-roll). So - if Korg is clever it would stay in touch with active users of the sequencer an identify all those little things that could be improved rather easily and make live so much nicer for those who actually work with this sequencer. Like Mike pointed out, little things have happened there - but I believe in this area much room is left for further improvements. Twisted Evil

Regarding Oasys I'm happy, that updates are released at all! Shocked We all know the many "open systems" that actually stay the same forever - they are open, but no updates are released. I would be angry, if Korg wouldn't release updates for the Oasys anymore. As long as they care for their current customers and deliver good updates I wouldn't blame them for developing things they are good in and that are economically more or less worth it. Cool
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Kontrol49
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francois wrote:
There is SO MUCH more you can do with a software sequencer like Logic, Sonar, Cubase... even compared with good hardware examples such as the MPC, MV8xxx.

.


I'm a long time user of Cubase,I switched to the Roland MV8800,I'd take more of an in depth look at its workings both in a Software type application(With the VGA)before you make a large assessment on it being less able than a software alternative,In respect to Audio tracking yes,a software alternative is more powerful and I agree that Cubase knocks spots off the MV,for audio editing to a large extent and for FX well the MV has some decent ones,not the best,but I will use an external DAW for audio tracking /FX anyway

If your totally into a software environment then there are more options,but how many hardware sequencers operate and Intergrate without removing the Hardware aspect or having to sacrifice one for the other and which give you this much freedom,even running the MV in a software application with mouse/VGA,you can still utilise the Buttons and sliders/Pads etc on the MV in the same way so you have an essential control surface and not have to use the Drop down menus,its Quite a breath of fresh air,when I have always wanted a hardware system that gave the flexibility of software,think of it it such a way that the vga is giving you a better display and you can still operate the menus/Buttons on the MV,so you don't have to use two different methods for a software way or hardware way,its the same(Unless you prefer to use a Mouse)

a significant ability for me in a sequencer is the function to drag and drop and do arrangements in the same way as Cubase,MV works like this,you have all your editors on menus on the main page so you don't have to keep leaving them like you do with the Oasys so you don't have to rely on the Mouse all of the time.plus you always now exatcly where you are and everything is visually represented well,and it has many powerful menus which include sys ex editing,Drum grid,Piano roll,list editor,something I wish the O had...

For any who's used a software application,(Especially Cubase)they would take to the MV,put it this way I hardly touched the manual,except for a few reference points,everything is logical,if you can work with the Oasys sequencer,you'll wonder why you never looked at the MV methods before
Beleive me the MV operates in such a wonderful way and gives you so much more scope of sequences when your used to Software that you forget that its hardware.

I'm not gonna keep blowing its trumpet as someones bound to flame me for it,but if you don't realise how good this machine is go and check one out for yourselves,Put it like this,those Videos on the Roland site and the "You tube" efforts don't even begin to show how well thought out and user friendly for composers alike,and if you think its only aimed at Hiphop rap genres,forget it,I don't make any of that type of music,but the MV works for me


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Kontrol49
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sina172 wrote:
EJ2 wrote:
Quote:
ON EXi'S, STAY OUT OF IT! THIS DOESN"T APPLY TO YOU!!!!!



I never said the OASYS Sequencer is difficult to use or not usable. The Sequencer is there, but its lacking in almost EVERY aspect, it's REALLY outdated and its getting old REALLY fast!

The OASYS Sequencer is pretty much the same as whats in the Triton, but with a bigger color touchscreen, and the 16-Track Audio Recorder, minus the Cue-List Editor. The OASYS is an AMAZING Instrument overall, but that Sequencer is FAR behind and that is my ONLY gripe with it. This is THE biggest issue with the OASYS today, minus the lack of Program and Combi Banks. You can't edit ANYTHING on the fly and whle Ive grown accustomed to that, it's very frustrating at times as it disrupts my workflow now. It's a fully blown-sequencer, but the fact that there are no graphical editors (as of yet) to view everything in a graph or grid that would be MUCH less time consuming, given that you'd be able to do all this on the fly is VERY frustrating.

The MV-8800 in comparison has several graphical editors in which you can edit each individual track on the fly. Change tracks while the sequencer is playing, quantize, move notes around and transpose an entire series of notes simultaneously, and more all in a VERY intuitive graphical environment.

ess!

Sina


Sina,
I'm an avid fan of Korg,so I don't complain about the sequencer for no reason,if you've already got a incline of how intuitive the MV is,take it from me,you won't be dissapointed,Go and buy one and then report back in here,to back me up,cos it seems that I'm the only one in here that seems to realise its potential,Your already aware of what it can do,so put it to the test,as I've as said a zillion times,I have used the Korgs since the M1 I've had several other hardware sequencers over that time but nothing ever gave me the answers,so I had to turn to software,but again I was never happy with runnign my studio from a PC,so wanted a complete hardware solution,I was kind of hoping that returning back to the WS with the Oasys would be a wise step,but Was so dissapointed that it was nothing more than a Triton sequencer essentially,I went back to the software again,but was never happy,then Along came the MV...Well the rest is history as they say,after using this I would never go back to a software Sequencer.....Having to keep the workflow going is important and the MV only really stops when you do,

I generally used to compose my tracks using the Cue list on the Triton,building up sections of songs and then chaining them together,the Oasys doesn't have that!!!So it meant that I would have to construct the tracks using the Patterns in the sequencer,one by one which is ok this is fine,but your only able to access one part at a time within the pattern unless you assign those patterns to the RPPR,

Imagine being able to build up an arrangement inside a pattern and not have any limit of 16 Tracks(well 64 if thats enough),and 128 Midi tracks in song mode,you can then copy and paste those patterns around,and also drag and drop the midi data if you use the VGA/Mouse,simple,even editing in hardware mode is easy and Keeps the Inspiration flowing,without having to stop recording and keep track where you are all the time.You also have access to 32 Midi Channels(Via the 2 outs)or 48 channel if you have the RBUSS expansion board),as well as 16 internal Instruments,this is important to me seeing as I run several external synthesizers,sadly the Oasys can only address them by sacificing internal tracks,16 channels is Limiting,when your using up to 6-7 synthesizers at a time as well as wanting to stack up tracks on the Oasys,I don't want to keep committing parts to the Audio recorder.

As well as Editing all your data in key,List and drum editors and include Mutes and solos inside those patterns so you can use one pattern to build u pa track just by simply including mutes and solos insides those patterns so you can easily bring in and out Tracks by looping the pattern all the time similar to like the Electribes,you can use the Drum editor in the same way as building patterns on the TR series drums or the Electribes,with each of the 16 pads representing a step in a bar,or you can input parts like the drum editor in Cubase,these functions are important to the way I work and also great for Live work

You can also include an audio track within the pattern too,you can then assign those patterns to the pads so you can realtime arrange a song,this gives you access to trigger a Pattern consisting of up to 128 Tracks from One,yes One single Pad.

Each of those tracks in the Pattern send Program and Bank changes on the fly to external Devices so you can easily make up loads of patterns using totally different sounds from many synths and trigger them from a single Pad in the bank in realtime,this is like having several arrangements accessed from the Pad bank,great for Live use..as each pattern can use up to 999 Measures which gives you enough to make a song fro ma pattern..,you can then switch the Pads to act as Mutes during that Pattern playing so you can play around in realtime further on that Pattern

or you can use it to sketch out your arrangements before commiting to a single song structure,(You know pattern 1-Verse on pad 1 ,Pattern 2 -Chorus Pad 2 etc)then When you want to build up a song in the Song mode,you just assign a pattern track and input the patterns at the required time either in realtime or step time,or paste them direct to Song tracks for further editing,you don't have to cut and paste patterns into a song if you don't want to.,this is a small handful of features that make working with it so good...This is something close to the Cue Lists function,as its good to be able to alter the song structure for live work etc,without having to re-edit the data again for another song

It has two modes Pattern and Song,you could build up a song using the Pattern mode only as it allows enough measures(From 1-999) per pattern for pattern building that you could use that and nothing more to create a track

Song mode is Linear based and all of the Operations are the same as in Pattern mode in terms of editing,if you prefer Building a song up track by track rather than Pattern methods,You can also import Midi file format,something that has helped greatly as I Now have all my sequences that were created on the Trinity/Triton inside the MV and also large track arrangements on Cubase,without having to compress then down to 16 tracks..

I can't rate this machine enough,please someone else use/Buy one so They can see exactly where I'm coming from...I Know these sorts of tasks creating song are workable in the Oasys but its far faster and easy to do in the MV

And think of how wonderful the Oasys would be if it had this type of
sequencer like the MV....Given its screen,and audio Quality/Sounds and Current features.. Wink


Last edited by Kontrol49 on Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:53 pm; edited 4 times in total
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