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Sampillion
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stultzsweeties
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:45 pm    Post subject: Sampillion Reply with quote

When you create a sample from another keyboard to recreate almost exactly that keyboard's sound. How many samples should you create. And how many samples will fit into 1 multisample? And then how do you recreate the effects even if there are more than 2 oscillators used to create that keyboard sound? Do you pick and choose which ones or what.
I would really like to recreate some of the synth sounds in the song "Free Ride" by The Edgar Winter Group. It seems like some of the sounds are from a moog synthesizer and how in the world would you create that sound on the Triton Extreme. Or could you?
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Sharp
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When you create a sample from another keyboard to recreate almost exactly that keyboard's sound. How many samples should you create.


C
D#
F#
A

Those are your root notes, and when mapping them to your multi sample, allow the root note to go up and down 1 semi-tone.

This is in my opinion the most efficiency VS quality muiltisample you can ever choose.

Worst case, your only stretching a sample by 1 semi-tone in either direction. That's so small that it will make it nearly unnoticeable.

Quote:
And how many samples will fit into 1 multisample?


One stereo sample per key.

Quote:
And then how do you recreate the effects even if there are more than 2 oscillators used to create that keyboard sound?


Sample the sound as it stands in full action on the keyboard your trying to clone, and make your loop points very long. Up around 6 + seconds. You will also need to using a PC to loop them as you won't have much success looking sounds like that on the Triton.

There's no undo, previews, or live loop points.

Quote:
It seems like some of the sounds are from a moog synthesizer and how in the world would you create that sound on the Triton Extreme. Or could you?


With sampling, anything is possible to a point. So yes, you can recreate anything your looking for.

Regards.
Sharp.
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stultzsweeties
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:27 pm    Post subject: Sampillion Reply with quote

Sharp,
When I record the sample (2or3 seconds) and then PC to loop? I'm not sure what program to use to be able to loop them on a PC. How do I set the root notes to go up and down 1 semi-tone?
Monte
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shrike
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How do I set the root notes to go up and down 1 semi-tone?


It is called index and range. In Sampling mode, you have tabs in the bottom, go to the indexing and there you will specify to which key sample will be recorded or mapped and how many semitones will the Extreme calculate from recorded or mapped sample.

For example:

Choose index 1 and make C4 for starting key and make it central key in the range (you can choose it to be central, top or bottom key - depending). Then choose range to be 3, meaning Extreme will create 3 tones from one sample.

When you record a sample, C4 will be original key and Extreme will create B3 and C#4. If you now press "Create" in the first sampling tab, Extreme will create new index, meaning new slot for new sample, and basic key to this index will be D#4. Why is that? Because you made indexes to be "Central key, range 3". So when you record another sample, D#4 is going to be your recorded key and Extreme will calculate the sound of D4 and E4.

So you see, you recorded only C4 and D#4, but with those two samples Extreme plays 6 tones - from B3 to E4.

If you choose range to be 5, Extreme would produce 5 semitones, for sample C4, it would create A#3, B3, C4 (sampled), C#4 and D5.

If you choose key not to be central but top or bottom in index, then semitones in range would go this way - if the sampled key is set to be "top" in range, semitones would be created below that key; if the sampled key is set to be "bottom" in range, semitones would be created upward that key.

It is rather easy, just try it for a bit, and Parameter guide explains it very well.

About PC software for looping, I'm curious about that too, am using Adobe Audition for editing the samples but it can't create loops in terms of tone generation but loops as sequence of music, not what we need to make a tone.
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stultzsweeties
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Sampillion Reply with quote

Sharp, Shrike,
Is the reason for looping so that if I hold a key down it continues to play until it fades out? Or does it continue at the same volume level until I release the key? Or should I record each sample for up to 10 seconds so it has plenty of time to fade out?
So what Sharp is saying the range should be 3.
Shrike now with your help I understand how this works in sampling mode.
I have a program that looks at samples called Goldwave,and you can shape increase and decrease volume, lengthen, EQ, doppler, etc..... but I don't see anything that says repeat or loop sample. Can I lengthen it to 6 seconds and then set the sample to loop in the Extreme? Sharp, is the reason why PC has to do this is because the window (to look at the sample) doesn't go beyond a certain time frame? Or is it that the Extreme doesn't have enough memory. Both of you guys are helping me out tremendously. I would never have been able to pick up on this so quickly by myself.
Monte
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shrike
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is the reason for looping so that if I hold a key down it continues to play until it fades out? Or does it continue at the same volume level until I release the key? Or should I record each sample for up to 10 seconds so it has plenty of time to fade out?


This other thing, "continue at the same volume level until you release the key", that's it.

You see, when you record a sample 3 second long, it will start, last for 3 seconds and end (fade out or just end, cut-end, depending on the sound).

Now, you don't want it to stop until you release the key, so that's where loops come to game. You assign "Loop start point" and "Loop end point" to certain points in wave to gain following way of sound generating:
Start of the wave - Loop start point - Loop end point - Loop start point - Loop end point... and so on until you release the key. If there weren't loops wave would go like this:
Start of the wave - end of the wave. And that's it. So in this case you would have to record 10 or more seconds of each tone to be sure it won't stop in the middle of playing.

It isn't hard to assign those loops in Extreme's sampling mode, though, I record my samples to last for 2 or 3 seconds max and then assign loops to ideal points, there is a big deal in sound to be properly looped so there is no clicks and stuff - you have to find exact points where the waveform follow its line, usually zero points but it isn't a must.
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stultzsweeties
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:33 am    Post subject: Sampillion Reply with quote

Shrike,
Say you're recording a piano sample. If you only set the loop to 6 seconds then if your holding a chord down and letting it fade out,, but you want it to fade slowly and last for maybe 20-30 seconds, won't it only stay on for 6 seconds and then just stop.

What time is it in your country?

It's 2:32 AM here.

Monte
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BasariStudios
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is one funny thing that people do, why they loop instruments such as
PIANOS, GUITARS, CLAVIS, BASSES, HARPS and else... Question
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stultzsweeties
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:58 am    Post subject: Sampillion Reply with quote

Nedim,
Is that you playing that upright?
How do you do such a feat? That has got to be hard on your shoes,
Monte

PS- I mean looping, or just don't play the stupid song, right?
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shrike
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nedim is right, why would you create piano sample that lasts 20 sec?
Piano's natural wave generating is to pitch it's max and then fade gradually in time, prolonging it for some time with sustain but certainly not for 20-30 sec.

If you are sampling piano, record it just like that - press key, wait until it fades out and live it that way, eventually erase empty space before sound attack (time from pressing record button to pressing key on piano) and space recorded until sound fades out completely (when editing wave you'll see point where there is no more waveform).

No point in making loops with that kind of sound.

It's 9 AM at my place.
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BasariStudios
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its 3 am here.
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stultzsweeties
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:40 pm    Post subject: Sampillion Reply with quote

No Shrike,
I mean to recreate the ability to let the note fade out over a long period of time, do you have to record it for that lenght of time? Or is that why you loop it, but you answered me a couple of notes before on that one.
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Sharp
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nedim wrote:
There is one funny thing that people do, why they loop instruments such as
PIANOS, GUITARS, CLAVIS, BASSES, HARPS and else... Question


Because if you don't, the memory usage spirals out of control.
You will not fit an unlooped piano on the 96MB of memory the Triton has if use the notes I've mentioned above. You would have to stretch the samples even more.

And that's just 1 layer.

Regards.
Sharp.
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shrike
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I mean to recreate the ability to let the note fade out over a long period of time, do you have to record it for that lenght of time?


In that case, you would have to loop it and make desired tone generation adjustments in filter and amplitude editing sections on Extreme (menu tabs 3 and 4).
So you wouldn't record it in long time stretch.

Let's cleat one difference, obviously we didn't point some important things:

1. if you make samples to be as good as possible, you will record them in their natural sounding way, with few different velocities. Those samples probably won't fit in 96 MB of Extreme's memory, as Sharp suggested. So you'll run them in some sampler software on PC and your keyboard will be only controller.

2. if you make samples to fit in to your Extreme, you'll have to live with some compromises - how many sounds will you sample, with how many layers (different velocities for example), with how many keys/tones per sound... If you want to create piano similar to real piano as much as possible, and want have some other sounds and all that in Extreme's RAM, you probably wont be able to do it.
So you'll loop even piano samples (I know it's contradictory to previous posts, but we didn't go deep as we should at the beginning) and process them in editor to fade like live piano does. Not just fade, but all the rest tone generation points specific for piano's tone generation behavior. Now, it's a great job, not easy to deal with it.

In piano's case would be simpler to create samples just the way piano sounds, no looping at all, but to get a good result, you'll overcome 96MB few times.

That's for piano. Same as for woodwinds (you won't find excellent sax samples that fits in Extreme anywhere) and string instruments etc.

Sharp already made a piano that's supposed to be great and is available on his web page for some amount of money.

I don't want even think of time he spent doing it, so save your self some trouble and just buy that piano from him. I don't have it, so don't think I'm pushing you or something. Sharp knows what he is doing, I believe, so probably that piano is great.

As much as you learn about sampling, you'll release how many things are there to it. And when you master Extreme, you'll see you can't do nothing without PC, when sampling is in matter. So, learning to use special programs... you have many sleepless nights to come.

Best regards,

shrike
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stultzsweeties
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject: Sampillion Reply with quote

So what program on the PC works best for working with samples?
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