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Is this the right thing to do?
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spinoria
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Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:41 pm    Post subject: Is this the right thing to do? Reply with quote

I sold my Triton Extreme for 4 weeks ago. Today I almost decided to buy it back.

The reason is that M3 has to few sounds and combis. Shure there will be USB-expansions but there are some disadvantages I don't think I can't live with.

My guess is that each expansion will take at least 64 mb data and with 4 expansions you will have to load 256 mb sample data each time you power up. It would have been far better to load the USB-expansions on some kind of harddrive, flashdrive or something similar so that expansions could be accessed directly after power up (much like on the PCM-expansions for the triton series).

Really stupid. Now I'll buy my Triton Extreme back and wait for the M3+ or the M4 keyboard instead.

Is this the right thing to do?
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jerrythek
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello:

I think you're confusing two issues, new PCM and new Programs/Combis.

The Extreme has 160 MB of PCM - the M3 already has 256. So you need not only rely on new PCM to make sounds.

When we and others make new PCG's available they can greatly expand the palette of sounds without requiring new samples. The Extreme proves that concept.

Regards,

Jerry
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spinoria
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:42 pm    Post subject: I'm not sure I understand... Reply with quote

I guess there is something I have not understod here.

In all the Triton series except the triton extreme there has been ways of expanding the ROM-memory with PCM-expansions.

I guess theese PCM-expansions was necessary to expand the sound palette with sound elements that was missing to get some kind of sounds.

In the new M3, do you mean that you have PCM-waveforms that isn't used yet?
Or do you mean you can tweak the waveforms so much so you can get as much programs and combis (with a big variety) that is in the Triton Extreme?

If you take the string and orchestral sound for example, I think the M3 really needs more variations of theese sounds.
Will the new programs in the USB-expansions manipulate existing PCM-string samples or is there some PCM-samples that has not been used yet in existing programs?

I thought that the bigger PCM-Waveform library was bigger because of higher sampling rate and higher resolution in the samples. Otherwise there should have been at least as many programs and combis like the Triton Extreme.

Thank you very much for taking time. It would be great if you could explain to me what I can expect of the M3 in the future.

It's a lot of money and I want it to be a good investment that will suite my needs for many years to come.
To me the Karma functionality isn't important.
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Synthoid
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:21 pm    Post subject: Re: I'm not sure I understand... Reply with quote

spinoria wrote:

In the new M3, do you mean that you have PCM-waveforms that isn't used yet?
Or do you mean you can tweak the waveforms so much so you can get as much programs and combis (with a big variety) that is in the Triton Extreme?



Both!

The M3 is currently shipping with lots of empty combi and program banks. But there are plenty of new sonic possibilities. Don't you do any of your own programming? I've played an M3 twice now, and yeah.....I wish all the banks were full, but I'm sure Korg will be releasing new sounds (for download) when available.

I currently have a Triton, but plan to buy an M3 in the next 6 months or so. The new sounds and features are a huge improvement.
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jerrythek
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:27 am    Post subject: Re: I'm not sure I understand... Reply with quote

spinoria wrote:
In all the Triton series except the triton extreme there has been ways of expanding the ROM-memory with PCM-expansions.

I guess theese PCM-expansions was necessary to expand the sound palette with sound elements that was missing to get some kind of sounds.

In the new M3, do you mean that you have PCM-waveforms that isn't used yet?
Or do you mean you can tweak the waveforms so much so you can get as much programs and combis (with a big variety) that is in the Triton Extreme?


There is a lot of creative use of the onboard waveforms to be explored yet. So we can get a lot more variety from the onboard samples in the M3. A synth is a variable sound-producing tool, not just a literal playback of basic waveforms.

Quote:
If you take the string and orchestral sound for example, I think the M3 really needs more variations of theese sounds.
Will the new programs in the USB-expansions manipulate existing PCM-string samples or is there some PCM-samples that has not been used yet in existing programs?


There is certainly more variety that can be made from the onboard samples. But you are right in that adding new samples can expand the possibilities, and provide variety. Adding new PCM might add samples of articulations not provided in the ROM, or larger ensembles, or even instruments not covered in the ROM. So USB-PCM libraries can provide that.

Quote:
I thought that the bigger PCM-Waveform library was bigger because of higher sampling rate and higher resolution in the samples. Otherwise there should have been at least as many programs and combis like the Triton Extreme.


In soft-synth/samplers it is quite common to use higher sample-rates and bit depths, since the computer can easily handle it. But the main reason that libraries get large is because of longer samples (with longer loops, loops that occur later in the sample, or even non-looped material), more sample points (every note instead of every three notes, as an example), and more velocity layers, including release velocity samples. And a wide collection of instruments etc.

In a synth/workstation like the M3 the reason for additional PCM expansion is for variety of samples/instruments, more articulations, and for types of sounds that simply weren't included in the ROM. The samples may be slightly longer than in the ROM as well.

But... your comments regarding the Extreme are not quite "right". The Extreme is the culmination of over 6 years of Triton/HI-based sound development, so it is a large collection of sounds and programming. It actually only has 160 MB of samples, so the M3's 256 is already larger. It's not the size of the ROM that generated all the sounds, it's the years of programming! So if you all were willing to wait another few years we could have released the M3 with as many sounds. But who wants to wait that long before getting to enjoy the many cool things and great sounds the M3 can produce today?

Wink

But don't worry - we intend to be developing for the M3 for a long time to come. Both more sounds for the internal PCM, the EXB-RADIAS and future PCM expansions not unlike the EXs-3 recently announced for the OASYS (but not as large, of course)!

Regards,

Jerry
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bctines
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drool
All good reasons to stick with the M3...the Triton of the future.

Need another reason? See Kid Nepro's post [url] Proto Rock M3 Sound Update - Feedback Please[/url]
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spinoria
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
we intend to be developing for the M3 for a long time to come. Both more sounds for the internal PCM, the EXB-RADIAS and future PCM expansions not unlike the EXs-3 recently announced for the OASYS (but not as large, of course)!


This is my concern with the M3 workstation. If you release some kind of EXs-3 library and the sample data would need to be loaded each time you power up it will drive me crazy.

Also the fact that the waveform memory expansion is limited to 256 MB is a major disadvantage.
This is not "protecting the M3 investment".

Why don't the USB-expansions load in some internal storage in the M3, like a flash disk or something similar?

Is this something you can achieve in the future?

I'm still not convinced to buy the M3 over the Triton Extreme. I'm still thinking of buy my Triton Extreme back and then wait for the next product built on the EDS engine.

Why am i'm not impressed with the M3? I really thought I would buy this workstation but I can't really motivate this investment. Can someone please convince me.
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shrike
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll forgive me, but I will try to convince you to get your Extreme back.
Reasons:

1. Extreme is flagship of Triton line - overloaded with preset multisamples, programs and combis, with OS completely improved and lightning fast, no program and combi change lag issues etc., very sturdy built for live gigs, supports MOSS, excellent key action, 96 MB is enough sample capacity for many many sound generation samples (though, not enough for wave samples as hip hop loops and stuff like that, but that's where PC come in big picture rather than a keyboard), no stability issues whatsoever.

2. M3 is new keyboard with great potential that is going to be achieved in few years. Situation now - not so many preset multisamples, programs and combis, bad velocity curves, time lag when program and combi changing, DIFFERENT key action (I use word "different" because some claim it's better than Tritons, some it's worse, to me it's worse, but I guess that's personal, so "different" is the right word), OS not stable yet, issues with overall build quality (printed buttons, bad materials, kind of soft feeling, not like tank-kind-of-build in Extreme' case), no MOSS support just now and no supplement for MOSS yet announced.
Of course, there are good things: bigger sample capacity, 16 timbres in combi, new sound engine...
Intentionally didn't mention Karma because it has no value to me and M3 is strongly directed to Karma users just now.

I thought of selling my Extreme and buying M3 too, but luckily for me, I had a chance to spend 10 or so days with M3.
It surprises me that Korg didn't take in consideration that M3 is successor to such a good workstation like Extreme - they should have only improve Extreme with bigger sample capacity, more timbre and new sound engine, name it M3 and that's it.

There is a lot of fuss about expansion boards, loading in ROM or RAM, and if final solution will be loading to RAM, that would be completely wrong. Loading time will be to long. So where we stand now, we don't know how will it work, is there going to be new MOSS...

Now, I don't think I'll ever sell Extreme and buy M3. Only option to me is to buy M3-M when it reaches it's final stage of production and use it alongside Extreme.

Get your Extreme back and worry about M3 in two years.

Kind regards, shrike
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kid_nepro_2002
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="spinoria"]
Quote:
Can someone please convince me.


I was convinced the first day I heard it. As soon as I turned it on I could tell that the EDS sound was superior to that of any sample ROM based synths that I have heard. I must confess that I don't get to the music stores much these days since I live in a remote area and have not heard all the latest stuff, but it certainly sounds a lot better then anything else I have in my studio (including my beloved Triton).

I've been working with the M3 for the past four months pretty much every day for several hours and have not turned on anything else. My feelings were confirmed just yesterday when I turned on one of my other synths and it just sounded "flat". After getting used to the M3 sound it was easy to tell the difference.

As a result I'm seriously considering selling a bunch of stuff that I probably won't use any more now that I have this. Maybe even go for the "Big O" one of these days, but for now the money will be better spent around the house. I just had to give the exterminator a bunch of cash to keep the termites from eating my roof!

Yes, it does not have every feature that is on your list. At least not yet. However, I'm sure there is lots of cool new stuff coming soon. My best guess is you will see something at winter NAMM. So for now I guess the key word is "patience".

Let me just say that this is in no way a commercial for Korg. Although I've supported Korg products for many years, Kid Nepro is an independent company and I do not work for Korg. Although I must say if I had to pick one company to work for, it would be Korg. They have always shown great innovation in releasing new products that other companies would not go near in fear of them not being commercially successful enough.

Just my 2 cents.

Steve Proto
Kid Nepro Productions
http://www.kidnepro.com/
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Erasedcitizen



Joined: 26 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have both a triton extreme and korg m3 and if I had to chose I would chose between them I would pick the triton extreme. It's much better to use live, simply because it has the 'Hold' function which is no where to be seen on the m3. And the m3 doesn't have enough preset to be the only keyboard for someone to own. If you have more than one keyboard or are good at programming then that doesnt matter too much, but if you are only going to have one keyboard I would buy the triton extreme.
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Synthoid
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shrike wrote:

no MOSS support just now and no supplement for MOSS yet announced.



The MOSS board has been discontinued; no reason for it to be compatible with the M3.

Confused
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spinoria
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:37 pm    Post subject: I play mostly live... Reply with quote

I mostly play live so if it's true with slow program/combi-changes I think I have no other option but to try to get a new Triton Extreme and wait for the M4.
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shrike
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The MOSS board has been discontinued; no reason for it to be compatible with the M3


Synthoid, this is the point:

Everyone that has an Extreme with MOSS (and knows how to use it) won't sell Extreme, if for no other reason, then just because of MOSS.
But if M3 were any better and would support MOSS, maybe some of musicians would take M3, get MOSS out and sell Extreme, because they could keep their priceless pet - MOSS.

Where we stand now, with M3 that doesn't support MOSS and there is no telling will there be some supplement (MOSS for M3, let's call it that way), M3 is worthless to those musicians.

Now I saw that I already wrote that, only in short:
no MOSS support just now and no supplement for MOSS yet announced.

And you qouted that line exactly. I wonder how did you figure from that one that I don't know MOSS has been discontinued, but OK, maybe I wasn't clear enough.

Quote:
no MOSS support just now
meaning M3 doesn't support existing MOSS, the one for Extreme.
Korg definitely should have make ti available, would sell many more M3, I think.



Spinoria,

M3 isn't completed product, was released ahead of schedule IMO.

But don't listen to us, go to music store and see for yourself what M3 is, or, more precisely, what M3 isn't.

And let us know when you get your Extreme back.
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Synthoid
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The M3 does have a Radias expansion board option.

Few keyboard manufacturers release new products that are backwards compatible. It's not what you like to see happen, but you have to get used to it I guess.


Sounds Good
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Maximus



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello everybody, i been lurkinkg at this forum for a while but havent posted that much, but i identify with everybody that is looking to upgrade their Triton Extreme to an M3.

in my case i think ill wait, the main reasons are the quantity of presets on the extreme plus the variety of PCM waves.

i've already asked twice on this forum about the USB-PCM expansions for the M3 and gotten NO STRAIGHT ANSWER , yes i know there are gonna be made sometime in the future, but how do they work? Do they load on RAM like samples? Or do They Stream from the usb drives?

waiting for an answer................. Rolling Eyes You do know the answer.........right jerry Confused

We understand perfectly that the extreme is the culmination of the triton series, (2 procesors + lots of PCM expansions and programs developed + Valfe force, etc.) and a great culmination it is, and so for a new flagship we expected all that and then some and the M3 is a diferent aproach on a workstation, so TE owners aren't jumping blindly to buy an M3

Personally i loved the M3 it and have the means to get one right now but, for me its not the right time to buy one just yet, ill wait for the expansions, or the second generation (Aka M3 Studio) before replacing my TE.

just my opinion.

BTW i dont mean to be rude o disrespectful to the very helpful people that know about this issue and take the time out of their busy lives to answer our questions, is just that im a potential buyer that really wants to know.
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