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JonSolo · Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: Mastering and Song Order

Since John (elll) started the last topic of an "off topic" nature, I figured it is my turn. And I think all of this is ON topic as it does directly relate to what we are trying to accomplish here in the OSAM.

Now when it comes to mastering, there is a lot of subjectivity and much written about effects and what to do. But I wanted to focus on song order. Part of this is an offshoot of something George said in a post, but I wanted everyone's thoughts and/or opinions in this area.

Is there any process that you (all of you individually) use in determining the song order for your CD? Do you do it chronologically or inverted? If so why? Do you try to alter fast and slow? Do you aim for a story? Explain.

This is not a test...just input for me...for us all. I have some thoughts of my own, but I really want to entertain this a bit. Obviously there is not one RIGHT answer, but I am always looking for new ways of approaching things.

Jon
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Stephen · Platinum Member Joined: 28 Aug 2002 Posts: 4709

I spent much time dealing with this issue, and it's very difficult.
I experimented several times till I thought I was ok with the order on Sweet Summer. http://cdbaby.com/cd/sfoster3
it was a question of changing moods for me.
If I didn't like the transition from the mood of one song to the next, I tried another song.
Probably a half dozen different scenerios, before I settled on the final.
Trial & error.
Hope this is helpful.
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JonSolo · Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:09 am Post subject:

Trial and error is definitely the short order. Obviously with a thematic album, it is easy to put the pieces together in an order that makes sense, at least from a story point of view.

But I got to thinking about albums like Sgt. Pepper and Pet Sounds. To hear these albums in any other order would somehow not make sense to me. To drive this point home with regard to my own music, I had allowed a friend to have a demo CD of some songs that were going to go on my Mood Ring CD. Now this was about six songs and were all instrumentals. When I gave him the final product and he listened, he called me and asked me "what happened?" as if it were bad. He told me that my order was all wrong...wrong in the sense that he had gotten used to hearing certain songs behind certain other ones.

In a case like that, I can see the WHY behind the order. He was used to it. On the other hand, I remember listening to Brian Wilson's 2005 release of Smile. It was totally different than I had heard in a bootleg version. But it made more sense. I was happier with it (perhaps seemingly in the fact that it had Brian's blessings, but not likely) and glad it turned out the way it did. But again, that tells me that somehow order is important.

Perhaps trial and error where the obvious does not stick out is the only way.

Any others?

Jon
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Jon Solo

http://www.solosounds.net
http://jonsolo.me
http://www.soundcloud.com/jonsolo
http://www.twitter.com/thejonsolo

Windows 10 | Intel i9 9900K | 64 GB RAM | Scarlett 18i20 | Nektar Panorama P6
Korg Kronos - 88 | Korg Kronos 2 - 61 | Roland Fantom 6 | Push 2 | Maschine Mk2 | Slate ML1 | JBL LSR308/310
Nuendo 11 | Ableton Live 11 | Reason 12 | FL Studio 20.9

Diego · Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:22 am Post subject:

Hi!

I've never published a "full lenght" coming from my fingers, but I think I would find the right order according to lyrics and feelings coming out from the music.
All songs are such personal things that just you could know the message you wanted to give...so it's all a matter of extabilishing the right balance of the whole feelings coming from the listening of the disc.

...but I guess I haven't been of much help with that post Embarassed

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Lorenzo · Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:51 am Post subject:

I think that it's important to follow a good key sequence IE don't put a F# song after an F song if you don't need THAT effect...
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georgeinar · Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:19 am Post subject:

My song orders so far have been leaning a bit toward fast/slow. But also thinking what would be the most killer song that people would most love to hear right off and feel the energy that I want to carry thru the cd. Almost like start with the single or the next best one. Second one would be the other strongest as long as it's contrasting. I would say by the third or fourth I'm already trying to find that song that shows my range either slow or fast but something that's really different from the others. Also, I would go funny - sad - scarey which is altering the mood up. I don't like a lot of songs together that sound the same. The albums that you're referring to from the past are so dated now that I'm wondering if anyone at all still does that sort of thing, these concept albums that have to go in a certain order. The reason I say this is because 90 percent of music lovers are on Ipods which cuts them up into individual songs randomly, usually. And rarely do I ever listen to a whole album in order, though I will for the oldies. Like I just downloaded off Amazon.com Ziggy Stardust and that's one that I love in order every single song. That's a real story driven concept album.
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JonSolo · Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject:

Yep Ziggy came to mind. That is a fav of mine as well.

The Ipod angle is very interesting. With one-offs as THE popular thing, album continuity has diminished greatly and sadly over the years.

I DO like the idea of kickstarting your album with some energy. It does set the tone for the rest of the album. And I agree about keys being back to back...though I would lean more toward songs where the keys follow similar pattern changes, or trail right behind each other in the circle of fifths (I do know a LITTLE theory Laughing

georgeinar · Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:00 am Post subject:

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that one, being similar chords. Like two blues progressions in a row, even fast or slow I wouldn't want that.
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ellll · Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:55 am Post subject:

Certainly the "kickstart" issue was a key for those of us programming and directing events, and I always used the idea.

In working with longer works, that have more than one movement, I put them in the middle. I also ended with a bang and it usually got the audience pretty well...never want to leave with your lamest number!!

Not the same as what you guys have to do, but some sim. problems...

However I had an advantage...I could control the heat/air (!!)...supply a simple extra, like coffee...provide an intermission, start a few min.late..(ONLY a FEW...more makes people mad...a few min makes them anxious and happy when you start.....)

Regards!!!! ellll Rolling Eyes

(John)

JonSolo · Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:47 am Post subject:

Ending is important. On my album with the group Solorayz, the next to the last song had the same energy as the first, but then I ended on a ballad of solo voice and piano. My sister said I dropped her like a hot potato. Yet another person said I had accomplished what I wanted coming from an album with the title "Songs from the Couch".

So objectivity must remain with the artist, and we have to trust their lead...in this case, our own hearts.

Jon
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Jon Solo

http://www.solosounds.net
http://jonsolo.me
http://www.soundcloud.com/jonsolo
http://www.twitter.com/thejonsolo

Windows 10 | Intel i9 9900K | 64 GB RAM | Scarlett 18i20 | Nektar Panorama P6
Korg Kronos - 88 | Korg Kronos 2 - 61 | Roland Fantom 6 | Push 2 | Maschine Mk2 | Slate ML1 | JBL LSR308/310
Nuendo 11 | Ableton Live 11 | Reason 12 | FL Studio 20.9

georgeinar · Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:00 am Post subject:

For me, I dont' really save one of the best for last, as I hardly ever listen all the way from start to finish on an album unless i'm laying on the couch with my eyes closed and a beer maybe and I already know the album is great from start to finish. So I dont' mind if there's a strange one at the end for the die hards that stuck it out. My last 2 I put an instrumental piece at the end. Oh, well.
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http://www.cdbaby.com/artist/2loose for my cds
http://www.soundclick.com/2loose or follow my tweets = 2loose_buzzgoth (twitter name)

JonSolo · Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:05 am Post subject:

Well if you don't listen start to finish I better step up my game cause I am working to complete my CD "The Right To Remain Silent" out of this OSAM!

And to meet that challenge, I actually started a new song tonight. And like you George, this one has got me a little nervous. I think it is going to be an important song for me.

Jon
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Jon Solo

http://www.solosounds.net
http://jonsolo.me
http://www.soundcloud.com/jonsolo
http://www.twitter.com/thejonsolo

Windows 10 | Intel i9 9900K | 64 GB RAM | Scarlett 18i20 | Nektar Panorama P6
Korg Kronos - 88 | Korg Kronos 2 - 61 | Roland Fantom 6 | Push 2 | Maschine Mk2 | Slate ML1 | JBL LSR308/310
Nuendo 11 | Ableton Live 11 | Reason 12 | FL Studio 20.9

Stephen · Platinum Member Joined: 28 Aug 2002 Posts: 4709

I read somewhere that the first song on the CD is the most important, and that it should make the listener want to hear more.
If memory serves, it went on to say that the 3rd, 7th, and last songs were also very important.
My band played a new song last weekend, and an audience member came up to Stephanie, and congratulated her on how great it sounded, (she was the lead singer on it).
The Drummer's wife told him after the gig, that "it was the worst song we've ever done".
Subjectivity is always a factor.

Rolling Eyes

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http://www.soundclick.com/jsf
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Location Central U.S.A.

ellll · Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject:

Speaking of the first song..

In performance, I always thought of it as really..."make or break"!...Which reminds me...wonder if Ron?? (Ronbo), is heard from and if he ever takes part...anyone...?

I just hope I can do well enough to get through this just one more time!!! You guys and gals...I hope so much it helps you to get where you want to be...in as much as is possible!!!

John ellll Rolling Eyes