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Please help me.
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ellll
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Location: Panama City, FL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Friends ..Inc Daz, WHO kindly,

Offered comments on my production problems, if I would give him my process...It is below, rather than on my thread, as it seems just looking I get a lot of comments...but most are mine...I felt I shouldn't do this on the song thread...:

On the Emblazon, it was very near this.. I may have forgotten some:...I) I recorded the strings on one track. That was because the whole theme came from some improvs. on the strings...2) I had something, so I went back and played a piano part..(first track of piano..),,then I added, one at a time,..harp, perc, horns, choir .(.AND more strings)..etc. inc some "noise" that seemed to show wind and waves...and birds...

3) I began filling in the more "open and incomplete areas. 4) I chose two effects engines, probably from just trying some from single voices...for example, perc. effects are often broad and sound ok in most mixes..

PS..I used Exciter...for #1..and Ensemble Hall for #2

5) then I went back and played an additional piano track, and bounced it to the orig...I did this with several other tracks, inc choir...6) I went in through edit, and removed wrong notes and other obvious mistakes..

I must remind that I do no Quantizing..and I do no step rec. its all in real time, as I simply do not feel creative otherwise...For this reason mistakes remain...and I am never unhappy with that...I don't change it unless it's glaring...

Also, I am inclined to avoid removing, or changing anything as it will make it different than what I felt to start with..I DO lower Vel. on notes that are OBVIOUS as too loud...but generally I don't ever change vel...I never add notes or run it at more than a few MM faster ot slower...It is as I played, from (if at mm:90...from 85 to perhaps 95...

I am always afraid someone will not know I play the piano as you hear it, except for adding another track at times..A FEW times I have played a diff item...like an Etude I can no longer play, and then speeded it up...but it doesn't sound correct then, and its not really me... I did a few "perfect" inc Quantize one time..but it is like a robot to me...all VERY old fashioned..I know...

(On the Mountian Quest, it is all as I played it in real time, but I played a couple several times before it was usable...I don't play real well any more..)

7) I worried for a few days because I can't find effects that sound good to me..( I ALWAYS do that...)

I recorded it on Audacity...Stereo two track, as the orig. pans were. On Emblazon, I had ALL of them on PRG..as I was told, that setting is as they usually appear on stage...HOWEVER..it was flat, and "muffled"so after a few mentioned it...I went back...cleaned it up a bit, and changed these pans to something more "left to Right"...There were also notes dropping, as I got too much going on in my enthusiasm..I have a habit of that I must overcome...It won't play but just so many notes at a time...I fixed most places...a few I couldn't remove enough notes without losing the sound...so I added a note or two AT that point..in the Harp to help cover. It worked...

I also use a few Audacity items..Bass Boost...Amplify...Equalization...etc..there are many..and there are Hundreds of add-ons or plug-ins you can get...I have one set...but it has high level thinge like Nyquist Prompt(??) etc that I don't understand...I put it in my files as WAVE..then:

9)I Ran it thru for mp3 and 10) put it on the server for our music...and wait for you guys to listen...

Sorry this is long. Perhaps it can serve as an example of what NOT to do??? And MAYBE Daz will be able to read it sometime..I would FULLY understand if he never did....

Regards...John (ellll) Rolling Eyes
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JonSolo
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thoughts-

Since Audacity is a multitrack recorder AND you are "old fashioned" (btw, I am too, every part you hear in my music is me live and in real time) you can accomplish quite a bit more than simply using the stereo outs of your keyboards.

1. Do this in Audacity
2. Do this as track two in Audacity, and then add subsequent tracks with the other instrumentation
3. See above number 2
4. Never put effects on an overall mix except during mastering. Then limit it to compressor/limiter, aural exciter, EQ, and in a few rare cases tube saturation.
5. Change this instrument up. It offers variety and does not make keyboard parts sound unrealistic or impossible to play. Again separate tracks in Audacity.
6. You can move and remove audio sections in Audacity, even punch in and out making this technique as doable as it is on a sequencer.

Since you do no quantizing or step input, you should be recording your audio to a multitrack instead of sequencing. In fact it is my preferred method. If I don't like the sound of a track there is much editing I can do to it still, and I always have the option to simply replay it with a different sound patch.

7. If you can, simply record to Audacity with the sound already having it's effects in place. It is not the best way, but programmers were paid quite well to come up with great individual patches, that don't sound good "naked" in a sequencer. So use those to their full by recording audio verses sequenced notes.

From there you can mix down the tracks and then master the final to get to steps 9 and 10 (I must have missed 8 ).

Like I said, this is the way I would do it since you are really using the sequencer as more of a recorder, and it really is not made to fully accomplish that task.

Jon
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ellll
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Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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Location: Panama City, FL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great material, Jon...I do have some misgivings about having to work with the Audacity to that debth..but it seems it would make it come out much better for me...

Thanks a lot, perhaps others will look at this and give me the support also. I do know that most record to something besides doing a sequence..However, the sequence is also no prob. with alignment and such...?? and the recorders are?? Do you know Kristal??

The "8"..was acting strange...every time I used it..it was making the "cool" emoticon on my copy!!

Thanks Jon, You are a great asset for this group!! We WILL use you!

John Rolling Eyes
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ellll
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Location: Panama City, FL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh..Kaaay..

Just got back frm some requirements....

I will use gobbledigook as a series of tracks...see if I can figure out the Audacity multi-functions. and ind. tracks as well...

Anyone who understands Kristal give me a hint or two on it...Even w/dir...I am puzzled...much more than Audacity...but some on the classical Guitar F think its the best???

Refaeds, John Rolling Eyes
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georgeinar
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I do use audacity to mix my tracks. While I sequence them on the Tstudio, I then make wav files of each group of tracks that need individual effects tweaking so I can analyze them in soundforage and apply in my case, distortion or chorus effects, delay etc. then once i have modified my individual "instruments" as it were, I mix them for panning and volumes in audacity, once I'm satisfied I create a stereo wav file and then once again I go into soundforge and use my ozone 3 plugin for mastering, ozone 3 adds sparkle, and other mastering sheens, eq, exciter, things like that. without the ozone 3 the wav files from audacity sound fairly flat, i don't know if this helps anyone, and i've mentioned this method in other threads, my purpose for doing this is that the TS is limited for true final mastering, and i only have 5 slots for insert effects and 2 for master effects which the whole song has to share if I keep everything limited to the TS's abilities.
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JonSolo
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of curiosity George, can you sync with your keyboard sequencer from within Audacity?

For the record, I dove into Nuendo years ago, and spent enough money to still be using it years later. I love the program and what it does. I wish I could afford the new version.

jon
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Stephen
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

georgeinar wrote:
Well, I do use audacity to mix my tracks. While I sequence them on the Tstudio, I then make wav files of each group of tracks that need individual effects tweaking so I can analyze them in soundforage and apply in my case, distortion or chorus effects, delay etc. then once i have modified my individual "instruments" as it were, I mix them for panning and volumes in audacity, once I'm satisfied I create a stereo wav file and then once again I go into soundforge and use my ozone 3 plugin for mastering, ozone 3 adds sparkle, and other mastering sheens, eq, exciter, things like that. without the ozone 3 the wav files from audacity sound fairly flat, i don't know if this helps anyone, and i've mentioned this method in other threads, my purpose for doing this is that the TS is limited for true final mastering, and i only have 5 slots for insert effects and 2 for master effects which the whole song has to share if I keep everything limited to the TS's abilities.

That's very similar to my method.
Just exclude the Triton sequencer that I never use anymore, and sub Sonar for Audacity.
Soundforge and Ozone 3, are my bestest friends!
Razz
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georgeinar
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never tried to sync with audacity, i know I tried to sync my ts to Flstudio to use the sounds in flstudio and it worked, but then i had that time lag and I got sick of messing with it and went back to using the sounds from the triton, my problem with the triton is that i can't get very great guitar sounds, that's really been my challenge, so i'm doing more electronica, yet still i end up needing some guitar, so i'll need to experiment some more
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Daz
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ellll for laying it out like that ... there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that process, and it should be giving good results. I have one question though to isolate where the problem may be occurring; how different is what you hear coming out of your 0/1W when you're working to what you eventually end up with after recording it into your PC and applying effects etc.

The other day when I recorded that sketch for you guys to hear, I just recorded my playing into the sequencer of the Oasys and then recorded the stereo audio it played back into a sound editor on the Mac, normalized it and then created an mp3 :

http://daz.korgforums.com/misc/L17.mp3

With a half decent soundcard and a little normalization (only!) one should be getting a pretty accurate reproduction of what the workstation is spitting out.

If everything sounds great coming out of your Korg, then the problem could be one or more of the following :

1) the quality of your soundcard / audio interface on your PC. What do you have ?
2) the configuration of your soundcard. I hope you have it configured to record with a sample rate like 44.1kHz and 16 bit.
3) you're doing too much processing of the recorded audio. If you've recorded at the right level, a little normalization should be enough.

Maybe you could record 30 secs of Emblazon and post a raw unprocessed wave file (rather than mp3) for us to listen to and analyze. That would tell us a lot about what's going on.

Daz.
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ellll
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

O...K... so that brings me to a specific.

I lied... Shocked No I didn't..I had a bad channel...and could not find it...mentioned it somewhere...but anyway it was the input to the comp...so I got my mind off what I was doing in the PLANS for the future...>>>>...

My main Comp. man (a top shop locally...but not the best on mus...) had the big (BIG!) new Soundblaster card out of a new comp. where a guy died..and the daughter wanted it out for the cleaning...and he got it like almost free and offered it to me for under $140 installed...

BUT several said..fergit it...its for gamers anyway, etc...so I was on to buying some other...then the breakdown came..I thought it was the O1Wfd going...so I forgot EVERYTHING!!! (But it was one little cord...)...

So I am still using...Let me look it up...Its..Avance AC97...???

So I still don't have a high class sound card..since I told him I didn't want the Soundblaster...

Tell me one more time what...I am back on track now...

Guy wants to sell me a unit for ..whatever...instead of the line in...usb???

so I have to do that...sorry..I fergot... Sad (He is the big mus. store locally)..and has it all inc. latest Mackie and Edirol and other stuff...and lots of keyboards..but that will wait now for a while...

So USB..Right?? .Good unit for USB...WHAT? (I use an old Technics professional model rec. now...) ...new sound card, what kind..and what else???

Regards. all...John ellll Rolling Eyes
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Daz
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are two good basic audio interfaces :

PCI card for plugging into your computer -> http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Audiophile2496/

USB based device -> http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/FastTrackUSB/

M-Audio gear is available from most music tech retailers, so should be easy to pick up.
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ellll
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Location: Panama City, FL

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question..

Want to put a phrase of music for the people's O.K.... Confused on, and I wonder if this would be a place for that....OR...

Should we start a NEW THREAD for what will be the song sometime..(But then you need a name, and folks would wonder where the song was while you were working on it...).

George?? Daz? where should a sample go??

John Rolling Eyes

PS ...Thanks, Daz...You know, I believe it was M-Audio my local was offering...but it was more like $250+...but it had several inputs......John
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Dee
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Daz

Is the M-Audio Audiophile 2496 better than the Soundblaster Audigy sound card?

Would they both work with Windows Vista? I didn't see vista mentioned at the link you posted, only XP.

(I don't have Vista...yet.....)

Thanks!
Dee
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Dee
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just looked up some prices....audigy seems to be much cheaper, only about $30, compared to about $175 for the M-Audio. (Aus$)

M-Audio must be better then! Very Happy Question
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JonSolo
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the Audiophile and it has a superb low noise floor. Additionally, the DSP takes a load off of the CPU enabling a lot of tracks to be recorded and played back.

The only drawback is that it has limited I/O (RCA or S/PDIF only). No problem if you are merely recording a stereo track at a time. AND it does not have a preamp. So if you want to record vocals you will need a mixing board.

However, they just released Vista drivers for it last month, so it is nice to see that a card which was released eight years ago still is getting support. I have a number of audio cards from M-Audio as well as a few of their controllers.

It IS a good choice. But it isn't much of a gaming card. Laughing

Jon Solo
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