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JonSolo · Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:08 am Post subject:

The "most sense" way is also the easiest way George!

I would make the TS your master. The M3 can accept EXTERNAL clock mode for the sequencer as well controls. You can still sequence and what not on the M3 directly using INTERNAL clock mode, and then switch over to EXTERNAL clock once you are done.

Make sure you have MIDI Out from the TS to the MIDI In on the M3. The sequencers will start together and be synced. You could also run the outputs through the TS inputs and mix directly through the TS...or you could use your mixer and separate the two giving you independent control going into your computer. You only want the TS to trigger the M3. Even if there is hesitation, that hesitation will appear on the M3 as well.

If you got any specifics feel free to PM me.

Jon
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georgeinar · Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:13 am Post subject:

My other question I may seek out at the M3 section, is whether you can truly sample continuously for 5 or 8 minutes in stereo with enough memory. If so, I may be able to simply sample my voice and make that my vocal track. The TS will not string all the sample modules together for a continuous sample, but you have to chop up the sampels, like one for the verse, one for the chorus, which did work until they added the audio track feature which was a godsend at the time. But thanks for your suggestion. I can picture doing that, simply hitting record on the TS and when it actually begins, then the M3 would kick in simultaneously and I could just be listening thru the M3 headphones for the cues. Thing is, I read many years ago that you should not trade up to new equipment, but rather you should simply add new gear. Because after you dump your old stand by you will someday regret it when you have a need that only that older gear can do. Also, you always know your older gear better at least at first.

By the way I've been watching the Karma demonstrations for the M3 and Oasys just to get acquainted with what it is and how it can work. While it's very mind boggling, it also seems a bit paint by numbers. Of course, there must be ways to personalize the vibe in there and make it your own. I just hate the idea of using too much pre-looped anything, as I feel I'm playing someone else's song and not really my own creation. That's why I have only used combi mode very sparingly and usually only for motion effects, or sound effect pallettes. So I'm not sure how much I'll use that, though the guitar strumming is amazing and would probably really help me when I want to add guitar to my sequences, that's where I'm usually lacking at the moment.

PS: Just read more about sampling, sounds like you can sample your voice or acoustic instrument up to 80 minutes using an external hardrive for storage, so I could probably just use one track for vocals and stream it off an external drive. I do have one that's like 160 gigs which hopefully would be compatible with the M3 system.
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DrWho · Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:40 am Post subject:

One thing about sequencing with the M3 - the sequencer in the M# has a greater resolution than on the TS. So if you use TS sequencer (via Midi) I suspect some Karma generated notes might not be were they should be.

I think if you are going to use the TS audio recoding by routing the M3's audio out (since the M3 doesn't have audio tracks - I think this is true, I always use the pc for audio recording) you might find it easier to just use the PC.

If you want to sample for 5-8 minutes - you will probably need the EXB-256 RAM memory upgrade. Or maybe as you said just sample to a USB memory device. There is no internal hard disk in the M3.

And yes - I would keep your TS. I don't know if Sharps VA and SA would load into the M3.

And one more thing - spend the extra $$ and get the 7x key version. The 6x is too small Sad

I wish they never made it, then I would have been forced to the 7x size. Oh, and the Radias EXB rocks!!!

You can tweak Karma - no worry about the pre-canned loop syndrome.
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georgeinar · Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:01 am Post subject:

Hey, about sampling vocals. Is there less flexibility when recording vocals to a sample, vs and audio track? I know I'll be singing along just fine, then I mess up the 3rd verse, so I'll restart just there at the 3rd verse to record the last section over again from that point. But I'm afraid that if I'm just doing one big sample, I might not be able to do that. Of course now that I'm saying this, I guess you can have more than one sample kicking in, I could actually have a multisample with the first part, then wherever I messed up could be replaced by a second sample that kicks in at the right measure, cause I know you can in-track sample, or have the sample triggered in the sequence. That might work.

As far as the 7x no of keys, of course, for sure. I would not get a small keyboard, my TS has the 7x and I use almost all the keys. It is amazing on certain sounds how cool the really low keys sound sometimes, it's like a different program compeltely. Or I try dittling around on the really high keys too, to see what they will do. Also, the drumkits seem to use all the keys anyway so you need them for that especially.

I think I would probably get the internal Radias, as I'm not much of a sound tweaker, and as long as the real time controls on the m3 work well to play as you go with the preset radias sounds I could probably do well to go that route, and it's rather affordable as an internal chip.

I think I'm intrigued enough by the Karma to give it a shot. If anything it's bound to add another dimension to at least some of my styles of playing.
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Diego · Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject:

I just throw in my personal point of view about the M3...
I'm going to buy one as I sell my S90ES, and I must say that one of the most amazing feature I think I'll be using on the M3 is the PC/MAC integration as a virtual instrument into my sequencer.
It should be great to sequence on a very decent DAW software using hardware sounds, don't you agree?

As you'll have to learn new things, why don't consider to learn this point, too?
Of course, you can start integrating both boards, but planning in the future to slave both to a DAW software.

Regards
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georgeinar · Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 2:05 am Post subject:

I have been considering that option also, I think the Tracktion I downloaded would do that just fine. I already have Flstudio as well, but that one I find very difficult. The tracktion seems to be organized the way my brain works. But I get confused between what is slave and master I guess it's called. For instance would Tracktion be triggering my M3 to play tracks, or would the M3 trigger Tracktion and how do you ever get a combined wav file after all that. It would help if I could visit someone in Chicago that has a simple midi set up with pc and a couple synths so I could see the flow of signals and how to step by step create a song from concept to performance recording to mixing and mastering. But I don't know anyone in my neighborhood who has a studio.
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JonSolo · Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:05 am Post subject:

georgeinar · Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 6:02 am Post subject:

I do have one question about recording audio to my pc. I noticed I have an mic input in the front, but it's a little thing compared to the honker of a plug that's attached to my mic. Would I just need an adapter of sorts so I could plug my mic into my pc? If I could record that way, I could probly go with tracktion for final mixing of my synth tracks and my audio.

Diego: Regarding sequencing on the pc, I have never even tried sequending there, as I do everything by playing the keyboard and recording my performance. For instance I never step sequence because I can't hear what I'm doing that way. But maybe I can sequence on the m3, then see my sequence from the pc point of view and then modify my sequence on the pc, such as insert measures or move measures etc. I could see doing that. That may be faster and very helpful if I could do that.
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JonSolo · Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject:

I strongly recommend AGAINST using any MIC input on your computer. It is best to use the Line In instead. The mic input has a cheesy preamp usually attached to it as well as being a mono only plug. The results are rarely clean and usually distorted.

Since you have a mixer, you could Line Out of your mixer (which should have a preamp) into your computer through Line In on your computer (unless you have a pro card).

Get the ASIO4ALL drivers as they are second to none for clean, clear, unadulterated, low-latency sound.

Jon
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DrWho · Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:05 am Post subject:

On the MIC thing - the only way I ever got decent quality was to get an external box - EMU-1820 / or equivalent. When I used a mixer the quality sucked. If you use the TS - why not just keep using it?

Lets see - you asked another question - what was it - ahh yes - I think you were hinting at what is often referred to as punching in to fix a performance track (vocal or instrumental). The way I handle this is to just record the next take on a different track, then mix 'em at the PC. So the way I use the PC is in effect a bunch of wav files - I drag 'em around - line 'em up, process them etc .... it is really easy. The part in the process a lot of other people have is to record the midi as well on the PC. I mostly work in the analogue domain. Once in a while I will use the sequencer, but usually don't save it - it is a construction tool for me.

Also one more comment on Karma - its not really correct to think of it as canned arps. What you really get is controls on arp features. You can tweak the arp notes, and the arp features / effects.

Ditto here - if your ever in the Ct. area - lemme know and you can stop over - we can jam Smile

={> Art
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georgeinar · Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject:

Yeah, I'm getting more and more sold on the karma concept, as I've watched several Stephen Kay videos on his tweaking and demonstrations. It seems that since there are so many options and knobs you can manipulate that what you end up wtih is a realtime control over arp-ing, something I would have killed for on the TS, as once you start the arp on the TS it's a fairly predictable thing (with of course some flexibility) but especially the guitar strumming i found quite monotonous so i rarely ever used them. I did notice there though that you can arp on the TS with a fairly open rhythmic thing, then you can overdub performance notes manually for some extra emphasis, as long as you're not overlapping too much it can be quite interesting and original sounding.

As far as recording with the TS, if you saw the tiny corner of the living room where I record you would see I have little room for multiple keyboards, if i have to I will, but if it's simply for recording audio, I may have better options that take up less room. At least I know it's there if I need it. And Jonsolo said I could set it up to be the contoler to the m3 so it would cue the m3 to begin when it's ready to record. That I can see working just fine if I go that way.

I have done that trick with vocal before. Just record the different verses then copy them to where they need to be in the portion of the song and then combine the audio's into one track then pull them into the overall mix. To be honest I often find that it's good to have the verse singing and the chorus on separate wav's as I do different effects often on the chorus and I have trouble with volume levels etc so if I have 2 separate tracks I can manipulate them as needed.
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DrWho · Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject:

You know I was thinking - you really SHOULDN'T get an M3 George - 'cause then you find out my big secret Idea

- how easy it is to make tunes using Karma Razz

You will not help being creative.

Of course if you do get an M3 - your music might make a radical change - could be a whole new universe opens up for you.

As for room - I had to get a stand that stacked the TS and M3. So that went up, not out - a good solution. Yea - but then add in the mixer, PC, speakers etc ... it does take up space.

I think the next improvement for me would be a PC based sequencer. I took a look a Traction - but haven't tried it yet. Lemma know if you try it out.
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sewa · Platinum Member Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 1293

Interesting discussion; IMO buying new toys for the studio can be both entertaining and productive, provided you know the direction in which your studio should evolve. I now have 5 synthesisers hooked via midi to a Motif ES workstation and I'm quite happy with the versality of sounds I have. By browsing through all that sound library I often find ideas for complete songs + all those knobs and flashing lights around make the job much more entertaining! Smile

However, one frontier that I won't dare to cross is moving to a PC and all the VST stuff. I tried midi sequencing on a computer and didn't like it. The number of options available + the interface (mouse) would detract me and ruin any creative process. I tried several free softsynths, bought a PRO-53 and now I'm convinced that this stuff is not for me. Maybe I'm missing a boat due to my disinterest but I'm not spending any more cash on software.

Another technological aid, towards which I'm sceptical is Karma. I tried v.1 with my Triton LE. Again, I used the PC version so it might have been part of the problem. My biggest concern however was the unpredicability of musical results. Sure, there were couple of nice grooves in the box tweakable beyond anything I had seen, but I never knew what a certain CC would do. Most importantly, I did not know how to program a desired effects myself. Ultimately I found myself unable to go beyond presets and quit trying. Its possible that v.2 is a whole different world but I still feel safer in the world of motif's pattern sequencer Wink

.

Good luck with your decisions!

sewa

georgeinar · Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:40 pm Post subject:

I'm probably as nervous about karma as well, but I will not give up my TS if I decide a piece does need a good arpeggio that I can predict. I would like to play around with the karma for those instruments that need unpredictability, such as strumming for guitar or harp. Who knows what else I may discover. Actually I just would like to adance technologically. I think I'll order the m3 tonight and then while away the days before it comes re-working my drum track on my june song.
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JonSolo · Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:45 am Post subject: