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Went with M50 61 but....(61 vs 88 resloved).

 
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John Hendry
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:58 pm    Post subject: Went with M50 61 but....(61 vs 88 resloved). Reply with quote

When they went to get it....no more! So it’s paid for but I had only listened to M5088 and before leaving the store I tried the M5061 just to see how keys played turned on. It was setting above 88 with mono out so ignored it till then just as store was closing. With head phones I know it did not sound the same so hoping it was just the demo 61 messed with....but 3 people compared the 88 to the 61 and 88 was much smother sounding so Tuesday back to store and pull out a new 88 and 61 and make sure they both sound the same. The difference was like an M3 to an OASYS almost a rather depressing difference so if have to will buy the demo 88....it sounds unreal...really hope Korg kept the parts inside the 61 the same as the 88...don't need a huge 88 non-after touch keyboard....give a guy bad habits after using AT. The little 61 is rather well built after looking at it more and outside of key action and no AT a very nice little package for being all plastic and at 15 lbs worth its light weight keys as easy to carry so absolutely stoked with it as long as it sounds the same as 88. Got the Korg Nanopads and Nanocontrol for KARMA functions to mount on Fatar 2001 that has a non-graded action that’s fast with just the right amount of stab as Fater called it.

Any one else compared M50 61 to 88? I used to sell Technics WSA1s when discontinued on blowout at CES and they needed time to mellow out….and that’s a fact noted by many people that purchased them comparing new to “used” side by side so not “getting used to sound” effect. Weird to say a digital thing needs to break in but have heard it enough with the WSA1’s and other gear to know that might have a little to do with it so two new M50s triggered by each other should tell the story. It is said they are exactly the same inside so taking that to heart for now so I can sleep but I also know some DACs and other parts are graded after production so could be the “same” but lower grade parts…sure hope not. You see this common in computer CPUs. The M50 88 I heard is a huge step above my Triton in sound quality….and that’s great...how time should change things.

John^^
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Last edited by John Hendry on Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:20 pm; edited 2 times in total
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FifthElement
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Joined: 04 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Went with M50 61 but.... Reply with quote

John Hendry wrote:
When they went to get it....no more! So it’s paid for but I had only listened to M5088 and before leaving the store I tried the M5061 just to see how keys played turned on. It was setting above 88 with mono out so ignored it till then just as store was closing. With head phones I know it did not sound the same so hoping it was just the demo 61 messed with....but 3 people compared the 88 to the 61 and 88 was much smother sounding so Tuesday back to store and pull out a new 88 and 61 and make sure they both sound the same. The difference was like an M3 to an OASYS almost a rather depressing difference so if have to will buy the demo 88....it sounds unreal...really hope Korg kept the parts inside the 61 the same as the 88...don't need a huge 88 non-after touch keyboard....give a guy bad habits after using AT. The little 61 is rather well built after looking at it more and outside of key action and no AT a very nice little package for being all plastic and at 15 lbs worth its light weight keys as easy to carry so absolutely stoked with it as long as it sounds the same as 88. Got the Korg Nanopads and Nanocontrol for KARMA functions to mount on Fatar 2001 that has a non-graded action that’s fast with just the right amount of stab as Fater called it.

Any one else compared M50 61 to 88? I used to sell Technics WSA1s when discontinued on blowout at CES and they needed time to mellow out….and that’s a fact noted by many people that purchased them comparing new to “used” side by side so not “getting used to sound” effect. Weird to say a digital thing needs to break in but have heard it enough with the WSA1’s and other gear to know that might have a little to do with it so two new M50s triggered by each other should tell the story. It is said they are exactly the same inside so taking that to heart for now so I can sleep but I also know some DACs and other parts are graded after production so could be the “same” but lower grade parts…sure hope not. You see this common in computer CPUs. The M50 88 I heard is a huge step above my Triton in sound quality….and that’s great...how time should change things.

John^^


I only played the 61 before buying the 88, but I had tried the RH3 action anyway. I find it hard to believe there is any difference electronically between the 2 models.

Maybe it's the velocity differences between the 2 keybeds. The M50 has 9 velocity curves to choose from and some of them make a big difference in how the output sounds. Might be worth trying different VCs on both instruments next time you try them out.
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Xenomorph
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I heard no discernable difference between the two so maybe when you heard the 88, someone had manipulated the sounds previously? That or the 88 had factory settings and the 61 was tinkered with making it sound different.

You need to compare them when they come out of the box, can't see how there could be a huge difference in the two. Your Oasys to M3 analogy makes me think something is wrong.
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kanthos
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They have the same sound engine. Either something was damaged in the 61, someone had changed the sounds, or there were slight discrepancies caused by you as a performer being more familiar with a fully-weighted touch instead of synth action. Either way, the M50-61 is not in any way different from the M50-88, other than keybed.
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StudioMan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IT IS A FACT,,, ALL M50s are the same sound engine, output configurations, identical in every detail (excluding the key-beds)..

Mike
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John Hendry
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:49 am    Post subject: M50 61 vs 88 sound difference Reply with quote

After calling around different GCs I got a hold of someone on top of it with good ears called "Swift" in Sherman Oaks and here's what he said:

The Korg rep told them that the 61 would sound different from 88 RS3 action triggered 88...I would not expect that but that's what he said...and he had noticed the difference before too. So he took the time to trigger the M50 61 with a M50 88 and said the difference disappeared. He had another salesman notice it as well and both said there was quite a difference. He was aware of the difference, personally owned Korg Triton down the line and many others so knows what he is talking about and hears well. The rest have all basically said they both sound "alike" and one said the M3 sounded better than the OASYS too so best to listen yourself as to my ears the OASYS sounds heads above the M3 or own would have instantly sold a few things to get M3 and saying this is off base.

I am going to bring my Fatar with me and set parameters to match M50 88 RS3 settings and see for myself on Tuesday and trigger both at the same time. I feel happy now after talking to Swift at Sherman Oaks G Center as he was knowledgeable paying attention to Reps words and solved the issue it seems but would feel better if the one guy at another GC had not preferred the M3 over the OASYS that said they sound the same. He believed M3 had better DACs ECT than OASYS so ears are different, but most will agree OASYS is absolute King in quality sounding keyboards.

If Swift is right....the Korg M50 61 is the undisputed king of the Big Bang for the buck IMO especially if you trigger it with another controller and there is a noticeable difference between the 88 and 61 using their own key beds.....or so it seems. See for myself on Tuesday but have confidence it is the key bed or issue with the 61 I tried now. Curious to hear how 88 sounds triggered off an orig M1 as well…I’ll drag one over and find out.


John^^
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John Hendry
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:13 pm    Post subject: M50 61 vs M50 88 sound quality difference discovered Reply with quote

OK, here's the answer to the reason the M50 88 sounded so much better than the 61 key version. Jerry’s advice solved the issue clearly showing why the 88 sounded so much smother and better according to all the people that compared the two as well as myself.

When picking up my M50, that came with software ver 1.05 BTW, I took two Fatar controllers with me: a 610 Plus and a high end 2001 88 key weighted action master controller, and an older Korg M1. The controller used does affect the sound, and how much depends on the controller’s setup. Triggering the 61 with the 88 default settings produces a VERY slight difference, but I would not call it sounding better, just a little bit "broader" due to better velocity control produced by the better weighted action. However on the Fatar 2001 the way I have it set up it sounds quite a bit different , its smother and less digital sounding as well as a little less defined requiring more pressure and speed to get the detail out of it. The 61 out of the box is more on/off sounding with less control through the attack as is the M1. The M1 action is simi-weighted and gives a better feeling of articulation IMO and has after touch. However at half the weight of the M1 I am extremely happy with a lower cost 15 lb 61 keyboard so no not much loss to me giving it up to keep it so light. The M1 gives a hair better control it seemed on a quick test and AT makes a huge difference on some patches such as Combi 40 Ashen DJ which is two different animals without AT. So the controller does affect the sound and therefore its "quality", but this is not the sound quality issue I was referring to.

I reset the M50 as Jerry suggested but this made no difference at all. Again I asked other people if they heard the difference I was hearing and again all who heard it agreed that the M50 88 sounded much smother (more towards the OASYS) than the M50 61. I was wanting the 88 at that point of course, not the 61. I was able to have one guy that was carefully listening with head phones to the Yamaha Motif and M3 try out my head phones while I switched the two and he said there was obviously a substantial difference noticed on most sounds and would only go with the 88 after noticing the difference and not too happy about it as the 61 seemed to be in his mind thinking the M50 88 he played sounded like the 61 above it as he compared it to the M3 and Yamaha.

At this point I knew I was up against everyone else on this forum that compared them and it’s hard to disagree so heavily with so many experienced players and experts like Jerry. However, there was no denying that the people that compared the two all preferred the 88 over the 61 saying sounded a step down from the M50 88.

Then it hit me. I reset the M50 88 as I did the 61 and what do you know: they sounded exactly alike triggered by the same controller. The "problem" was Milk as they call him had set up the M50 88 to his likings and made the M50 sound much better. So at the cost of ruining his work programming the M50 88 I resolved the issue and became one VERY happy M50 owner.

I wonder if this is not careful marketing to not upset OASYS owners by coming out with such an inexpensive board so high in sound quality perhaps getting uncomfortably close to the OASYS even though it lacks its features and construction. And now I think back to the one GC salesman that said the M3 sounded better than the OASYS and wonder what was done to it as well to give him such an opinion, he did mention setting it up. GC does not have the OASYS anymore to compare, and as I recall it still sounded better, but not that much compared to the M50 88 before Jerry's advise had me change (destroy;-) it. My main desire of the OASYS has always been is it's stunning sound quality. If you think your M50 sounds good out of the box I assure you it can sound better and that was the "problem". Ask anyone that heard the difference and you will see there was a really nice improvement made to the "quality" of the M50 88 on display...till I got to it with Jerry's email in hand that is.

So symmetry was at work here and resolved the issue, not a defective or lesser quality sounding M50 61 as was first thought. So get very excited, the M50 is an absolutely amazing sounding keyboard and even better after a little programming out of the box. What did Milk do to it? Good question, he left his shift when I arrived. All it would have taken was one $10 SD card and some forethought to have saved it.

John^^
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jerrythek
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I should feel good that my advice was right, yet feel bad that I caused you to destroy Milk's settings?

Question

I am curious what he did, please try to find out. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is curious...

Confused

Regards,

Jerry

P.S. I worked at Ensoniq for 8 years, I have plenty of experience playing poly-after-touch keyboards (I still own 3!). Wonderful technology for two-handed playing/independent expression.
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Xenomorph
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was 99.99% sure in my 1st post that the sound was different because someone had previously changed some settings and saved it, but that .01% was still nagging at me that maybe, just maybe there was a difference between machines with their default settings. Good to see I still have some sanity left Laughing
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John Hendry
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:48 am    Post subject: Poly After Touch and M50 88 vs 61 Reply with quote

Hi Jerry,

I meant to email you on what happened but have been busy and not found out yet what he did to it. He said rep also played with it but all agree I didn't make it sound any better resetting it;-) Really wish I saved it as their were many SD cards around to do so...like my cell. Errr... Any way it really did sound less digital and really smooth so see what Milk does to remedy my act of comparing them.

I forgot about Ensoniq having poly AT. Did they have a weighted action or only synth action with Poly AT? I would add that with more complex sounds now used it is REQUIRED to use poly AT now. Some sounds just go nuts and sound bad using ch AT. Please get Korg to add a real controller with poly AT to their products!!! The O1W, WS, Triton all support receiving it but no way to use it live. If people try it they will want it…

Just sent this off in PM about the new OASYS coming out…Wink

“Sure hope Korg puts Poly after touch in it. I just hooked up my Elka MK76 that has poly after touch and tried out the M50…holly **** it is the bomb with it. I almost forgot how nice poly AT is.”

BTW, what board had Ensoniq’s best action with poly AT? Worth getting just for that….

Thanks, let you know what was done to 88 M50 when Milk as they call him figures it out.

John^^
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