 |
Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
meatballfulton
Senior Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 351
|
 Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:57 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
[quote="X-Trade"] | Megakazbek wrote: | I've noticed that the newer Virus' do sound better but they're still awfully limited compared to say, the RADIAS.
I'm not saying its bad, but it is massively overrated. |
That's what I thought until I owned one (I also own Radias).
The Virus sound is the reason for the hype, it can do creamy rich sounds that no other VA I have ever heard or owned can do. In that sense, it is in no way overrated.
Yes, it's limited in many ways but so is a MiniMoog and I don't see a lot of those sitting in garbage cans.
_________________
I sing the body electric |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
CfNorENa
Senior Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2008
Posts: 437
Location: SF Bay Area
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| master logic wrote: | | Or get both, it will be the best combination you can buy |
I'd say Kronos + real analog. Now there's a powerful combination...
_________________
Korg gear: Kronos 73.
Other gear: Oberheim SEM | SCI Prophet 5 | Roland MKS-70 | Waldorf Microwave XTk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dr. Who
Junior Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 64
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Radias better than a Virus??? Wow... you must not own a TI or TI2. So many major artist track with them. And they do a fantastic job of analog emulation. TI's are amazing machines offering total DAW integration and in multimode retain effects!!!! Man oh man I wish Korg would finally learn and start doing the same. Effects are lost in multi mode sequncer mode on the OASYS and it appears it will be no different with the Kronos. That is a fantastic feature available on the TI's
Bottom line is if you like the Virus TI sound, buy a TI you won't regret it. This is assuming you have other boards to round out your studio. If you don't have a workhorse bread and butter synth, the KRONOS seems like a great buy because it does so much for less than 3k. The AL-1 engine is nice but it's another VA engine and when it comes to VA I prefer true analog synths. AL-1 vs. Virus TI... If you want to make new sounds the TI is really really easy to use. AL-1 takes a bit more to get used to. I've ported lots of minimoog patches into my VI and they sound very convincing to the original. I haven't been able to achieve the same level of success on the AL-1 engine. I'm sure people that know that engine inside and out can do a better job on it than I can. But on the Virus it is a breeze and I'm able to program some of my favorite obie and moog patches.
I agree with the above poster if you really want that ballzy analog sound but like what the Kronos has to offer, how about a 61 key KRONOS and a cheap analog. The Tetra is a big bang for your buck poly analog, a cheap DCO analog Oberheim Matrix 1000 (only programmable via software but filled with 800 very usuale presets) is great as well. If you are looking more for mono basses and leads look for a used Moog MG-1. All of those analogs can be had for cheap, paired with a Kronos I think the bang for your buck would be greater than a TI2. And a KRONOS with a Tetra, Matrix 1000 or midi'd MG-1 is a great start or welcome addition to a studio. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tritonlover2000
Junior Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 82
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dr Who,
While Virus does have a 'phat' unique character, I must say it does not sound analog AT ALL, not even close. DSI Tetra or Moog on the other hand sounds real analog.
There is absolutely no VA synth or software instrument that sounds true analog. While they have similar characteristics, what the VA misses is that 4 dimensional soundspace that real analogs proudly possess. VA sounds sterile and digital no matter what.
Moog Voyager even though monophonic can create such rich timbres its impossible with the Virus.
virus however is indeed better if you want all sounds to fit in a mix. real analogs need eqing to fit in a mix and by then the individual timbres sound thin and almost like VA though its still richer than VA imo.
i would get virus for its unique sound, and yes to me, i d rather keep my M3 and buy a virus ti desktop than get a Kronos trade in (same amount approx with trade in).
but if i have the money i would sell m3 and get the kronos and the virus.
i have listened to the kronos audio demos on korg webpage and that dance track still sounds korgish which is cool but i prefer virus for any dance track and korg for any orchestral or atmospheric pads.
_________________
"Korg simply makes the best sounding synths. Thank you Katoh and the rest!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Megakazbek wrote: |
It has wave sequencing, which basically means, it can play waves in one direction with constant speed. You can't modulate index in arbitrary way by any mod source.
|
Back home from NAMM now!
The KRONOS (and OASYS) Wave Sequencing supports modulation of Start Step, continuous modulation of Position, and continuous modulation of Duration (speed).
Some manual excerpts:
"Duration modulation lets you dynamically control the step duration and crossfade times. You can speed up or slow down the Wave Sequence so that it runs between 1% and 400% of the original rate."
"Position modulation lets you offset the Wave Sequence from the current step. If Run is turned On, The Wave Sequence will continue to progress through its steps during modulation, kind of like fast‐forwarding while playing a tape or CD.
To sweep through a sequence manually, creating the distinctive sound of a famous German synthesizer:
1. Set Run to Off.
This means that the Wave Sequence will stay on the current step, until you modulate the position.
2. Under Modulation and Position, select an AMS source, such as the ribbon or an EG.
3. Set the Intensity to a positive value to move forward through the steps, or a negative value to move backwards.
For instance, if Intensity is set to +14, the maximum amount of modulation will move 14 steps forward in the Wave Sequence."
"You can use a MIDI controller, such as Velocity, to select a different start step for each note, to introduce more variety into the timbre. You can move the start step either forwards or backwards."
_________________
Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Megakazbek
Junior Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2007
Posts: 92
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Wow, how could I not notice that feature! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
axxim
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 665
Location: Freiburg/Germany
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Dr. Who wrote: | | Radias better than a Virus??? Wow... you must not own a TI or TI2. So many major artist track with them. And they do a fantastic job of analog emulation. |
I would say a lot of synths are overrated! Just because so many artists track with them doesn't means it is the better engine. And for what is analog emulation if there are enough analogs? If Daft Punk, the BEP or GaGa or whoever starts re-using an 8-bit casio, then all run and want 8 bit quality, same with autotune, talk-box etc.
This constant discussion which is the better Synth, VA, or architecture is more than useless. As useless to say which is the best car or toaster.
Even if I think the V-TI sounds good, it is to expensive for being just a bunch of silicon wafers with a well programmed dsp code. Sure software isn't for free, I know it takes the biggest costs in most developments but once developed it has minimal or no production costs compared to the hardware. Then it depends on how the target of units to be produced is set what determines the actual costs. But this may have nothing to do with the price of the product at all. Eventually it is mostly inflated by other aspects like quality, exclusiveness, status, developers/designers name/signatures, etc.
Personally I buy a synth when I get convinced the performane/price relationship is ok and its sound/architecture inspires me to do something with it, without forgetting some important aspects (at least for me):
1. You can not put more in a sound than our (poor) audible frequeny spectrum allows
2. Excessive polyphony is best for poor sound programmers or GM (General MIDI) players
3. Only a real piano sounds like a real piano
_________________
_/\_><_><_|_//,_
Only a Radias, VP-770, SP-170S and iPad2
http://www.axxim.de/r3dias
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyi18932rUoHqUTEpsykkIg |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
synthguy
Platinum Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 661
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| axxim wrote: | | This constant discussion which is the better Synth, VA, or architecture is more than useless. As useless to say which is the best car or toaster. |
Well......... sort of. It is actually useful to prospective synth buyers to get an idea of what this huge roster of instruments are capable of and sound like. And they all do sound unique in one way or another.
| Quote: | | Even if I think the V-TI sounds good, it is to expensive for being just a bunch of silicon wafers with a well programmed dsp code. |
This I would agree with. As popular as it is, and as many units get sold, I'd think it should be priced lower. Instead, I bought a used Virus KC on ebay for one-fourth the price of a new Ti. It has crashed once, but came right back to life. And it does sound marvelous with the Moog filter. It is very versatile, sounding nicely analog-like, giving me nice meaty Moog basses and leads, but also tweezy CS-80-like textures and pads. And the panel is lots of fun to play with, thanks to a wealth of knobs and buttons for most functions.
BUT having said that, I try and use it like an old VA with effects, and while it's very good at that job, I've moved on to add more synths which do appeal to me more now.
Radias. Wow, I love this thing. It constantly surprises me with what it can do. It sounds more like an Oberheim or CS-80 than a Moog if you want an analog landmark to compare it to, but that's still a great sonic signature, and you can coax a lot of Prophet 5 sound from it too. Even then, with up to six oscillators running at once with the waveshaper doing OSC duties, you can get Moogy with it. While only 24 voice, those are some amazing voices.
Arturia Origin. This thing stunned me with how well it emulates analog synths, having the models of Moog, Arp, CS-80 and Jupiter 8 oscillators and filters, as well as a great generic filter which is very useful for Oberheim and Prophet style sounds. There is even a drawbar organ model and a usable Leslie effect. There are templates for Minimoog and Jupiter 8 so far, but the kicker is that you can create sounds by dragging different oscillators, filters, LFOs and what not into a rack with a very flexible patching system. So you're not just making patches, you create instruments! The effects are basic but you get three per part, and being a four part (combi) instrument, that means 12 effects running at once. Voice count depends on module complexity, but I typically get 24 voices with tricky patches.
Kurzweil PC3(K). Right now, this is my fave workstation, and to my estimation other than OASYS and Kronos, the best. I love the sound of VAST synthesis, and Kurzweil have improved the samples since the K2600 it replaced, including a nice selection of orchestral samples and vintage instruments like Mellotron and CP-80 Electric Grand. The VAST engine has been beefed up too with the oscillators and Moog filter model from the unreleased VA-1. On top of that, there's a very good organ model, including the more sawtooth oscillator sounds of Farfisa organs.
Waldorf Blofeld. Hey, this thing is awesome, being based on the original wavetable synth, the PPG 2, but with many more filter types and cleaner waveforms. If I didn't have an Ensoniq Fizmo already, I'd have one. And I may still get one, because it is heir to the Waldorf sound lineage.
You have a lot of choices when it comes to what to have in your synth arsenal. Frankly, I'd get the Kronos and see how well the AL-1, MS-20 and Polysix models treat you. And not to forget the MOD-7 FM synth, which will give you timbres that you can't get any other way. If you still want more variety, and as a bedroom synthesist, that's my thing, you could get a used Virus, or one of the synths above.
Honestly, if anyone can afford it, getting a Kronos and PC3 would give you all the soundmaking power you'd ever need for the foreseeable future.
_________________
PRAY FOR THIS PLANET!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dr. Who
Junior Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 64
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| tritonlover2000 wrote: | Dr Who,
While Virus does have a 'phat' unique character, I must say it does not sound analog AT ALL, not even close. DSI Tetra or Moog on the other hand sounds real analog.
There is absolutely no VA synth or software instrument that sounds true analog.
virus however is indeed better if you want all sounds to fit in a mix. real analogs need eqing to fit in a mix and by then the individual timbres sound thin and almost like VA though its still richer than VA imo.
i would get virus for its unique sound, and yes to me, i d rather keep my M3 and buy a virus ti desktop than get a Kronos trade in (same amount approx with trade in).
but if i have the money i would sell m3 and get the kronos and the virus.
i have listened to the kronos audio demos on korg webpage and that dance track still sounds korgish which is cool but i prefer virus for any dance track and korg for any orchestral or atmospheric pads. |
I totally respect your opinion or in this case ears on what you hear  , but were you using an older Virus or TI/Ti2? I do agree no VA can sound just like an analog, however the TI2 is closer than anything at all I've come across. My gear list includes many analogs; modern and vintage. I'm very familar with DSI and Voyager's timbres. I own a Voyager and Prophet 08. As far as VA's I've never sonically heard anything like a Virus TI2 (as far as VA's go). I normally hate VA's but I've ported several of my patches I've created on my Voyager and ObXa into the Virus TI2 so I could use them in multimode. I am not saying they sound perfectly alike... they don't, but they sound really close lots of creamy moogness and 4pole obie goodness in those pathes. To say the Virus doesn't sound analog AT ALL really isn't accurate. For some Virus patches that is very true, they sound like the repetitive overdriven hoover dance junk that is on every other track out there. The patches I've programmed, sound very convincing in analog timbre. I'm not sure how much time you've spent with the Virus TI2, but it's the only VA I know of or that I've used that has gotten into convincing analog emulation. It doesn't shake the room like my MemoryMoog, but it definitely gives a convincing analog feel. Keep in mind if you are only playing with presets that is one thing as well. Some are decent and others are very "sparkley" cookie cuter dance oriented and way too shrill to sound analog. This goes true for any synth, do not judge it by presets! If so I would have sold my A6 many moons ago. The presets we so weak on that board but it is a pretty nasty beast (in a good way).
I'd have to ask what you have on your front end if you track with analogs and you "need eqing to fit in a mix and by then the individual timbres sound thin and almost like VA." Woah! That's the beauty of analog, I use very little effects. The analog sound is so nasty they usually don't get too much treatment. If you're front end is a weak link and you are using cheaper A/D convertors that might be your culprit. You shouldn't have to drench analogs in effects for them to sound good or lose that umph while tracking. Really have a serious look at what you're tracking with. Sounds like a solid A/D convertor and preamp might do wonders for you. Just trying to help, set your analogs free!!! They are meant to be tracked with in their full glory.
For me the Virus and true analogs have been a great OASYS companion. Maybe one day you'll give the TI2 a full test spin and it will surprise you with some convincing analog emulations, but if not... nothing wrong with that either. Just get to making music. That's why we're all here!  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dr. Who
Junior Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 64
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| axxim wrote: |
I would say a lot of synths are overrated! Just because so many artists track with them doesn't means it is the better engine. And for what is analog emulation if there are enough analogs? If Daft Punk, the BEP or GaGa or whoever starts re-using an 8-bit casio, then all run and want 8 bit quality, same with autotune, talk-box etc.
This constant discussion which is the better Synth, VA, or architecture is more than useless. As useless to say which is the best car or toaster.
Even if I think the V-TI sounds good, it is to expensive for being just a bunch of silicon wafers with a well programmed dsp code.
Personally I buy a synth when I get convinced the performane/price relationship is ok and its sound/architecture inspires me to do something with it, without forgetting some important aspects (at least for me):
1. You can not put more in a sound than our (poor) audible frequeny spectrum allows
2. Excessive polyphony is best for poor sound programmers or GM (General MIDI) players
3. Only a real piano sounds like a real piano |
Gotta agree just cause an artist tracks with a synth doesn’t mean it’s good. Timbaland/JT tracks with a Roland SH 201 presets. Those are two things you’ll ever find in my studio; a cheap plastic Roland 201 and a cheap plastic Timbaland/JT cd  It’s all comes down to sound quality. Personally I think the OASYS/Kronos has a great huuuge sound that you don’t find in many if any workstations out there. Also I find the Virus TI2 sounds, very shapable and nasty in your face also can sit back in a mix with a great analog feel if programmed properly. You have to own one to understand.
I agree it’s pointless to say which synth is best, if you like the sound of a Solina, buy a Solina! If you like the sound of a Kronos.. by all means get one. Especially since they are a steal at current pries! Some synth have good sound but insane features (i.e. V-Synth). If that flexibility is great and inspries you sonically... there you have it. Who cares what artist track with it; it inspires you to program sunds and make music. There are a great many options out there and if they sound great, go get em.
The TI2 is pretty high on the cost scale, no doubt. Totally agree with you there. After buying it, I thought of other gear I could have bought at the smae price. Then I actually played/programmed it and thought… WOW. Similar with the OASYS (same timbre as Kronos). Day 1 with OASYS, "I spent how much on this stupid thing that is so big, I am so stupid for wasting moeny on such a.... WOW!" Loved the sound and crazy flexibility after messing with it.
One your last 3 points, I agree again, except for #2. I am looking for excessive polyphony. I am not a GM player. I make my own midis and track original pieces. Having a module that is multi-timbral with tons of polyphony allow me to layer sound on top of sound on top of sound in one shot all from the same midi file. In the end that’s what we are looking for, tons of sound. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimknopf
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
From my view the Access Virus TI/TI2 is neither overrated nor overpriced, not even a bit. I play a TI keyboard since it appeared. Looking back, I would say that this piece of gear has one of the very best price-value relations I have ever had in my gear over many years.
First, I regard it as part of it's value that I had access to several thousand patches available for free (many of them top patches from first class programmers) right from the start, and new patches come with every OS update.
And second, I have received a degree of free, highest quality update work for this device, which has made it more powerful year after year, with many essential(!) updates, up to the coming OS 4.5, that I haven't ever regretted spending the money.
Add the excellent customer support, and you will have a hard time getting a better price-value relation anywhere in music business.
I agree with Dr. Who:
It's irrelevant which artits use what, though they (or maybe their sound engineers) may give you valuable hints for your own use.
It's not about hype. It's about what you can really use best. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
btdahl
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 10
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Kevin Nolan wrote: | | And - you mention a point that should be addressed. Right now, us OASYS owners are feeling pretty weird about Kronos. If you look at the OASYS forum - we've noticed that Korg have not mentioned, even once, that Kronos has come from OASYS - Kronos is identical to OASYS in almost every regard except with some more synth engines. But the way Korg have released Kronos, it's as if OASYS never existed. It's just very curious. And the demo video makes it sound like all those synth engines are new - whereas I'm already hugely familiar with all of the ones found on OASYS. So we're scratching our heads as to why Korg are avoiding mentioning OASYS at all costs. |
Personally I think it is quite obvious why Korg isn't to keen on mentioning the OASYS with regards to the KRONOS. The KRONOS, is, as I would putit, and for lack of a better word not the OASYS 2, but the "OASYS Affordable". The O was in a big way a test bed, or a field test if you wish for what Korg wanted to do, and as we know it was way ahead of its time. The obvious side effect of this was the price.
The KRONOS is just a cheaper OASYS, we are finally at a point where the required hardware is affordable for a "reagular" synth, and as impressive as the O was, it is still a top notch synth.
For those who know the history, and how awesome the O is, this is not a problem, however it is no good for Korg to make the general audience aware that the tech was created 5-6 years ago, even though the tech was 5 years ahead of its time back then.
So to put it simply. The KRONOS is the markeatble synth at the right time, whereas the O was a field test of at that time future technology, but for the regular consumer it will look like the KRONOS is old, rather than that the O was futuristic
_________________
--
OASYS88 002027 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimknopf
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I can't agree at all here:
The Kronos has MUCH more to offer than just being a cheaper Oasys.
The only advantage of the Oasys is the hardware quality with some additional connection options. Else the Kronos has many advantages over an Oasys, and I'm not just speaking of two decisive(!) new EXis. These advantages are listed in other threads.
If I had the choice between two Oasys or one Kronos for free, I would of course choose the Kronos - or perhaps sell the two Oasys if they bring more money, and then buy a Kronos and invest the rest into addional Kronos RAM and and some of the announced (and delayed) sound library stuff.
It is nothing than a self-comforting fairy tale that a Kronos is hardly more than a cheaper Oasys - despite the cheaper hardware build quality of the Kronos. And I ask myself when these futile comparisons, ignoring or belittling the essential development steps of the Kronos over the Oasys, will finally stop.
_________________
Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
btdahl
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 10
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jimknopf wrote: | | It is nothing than a self-comforting fairy tale that a Kronos is hardly more than a cheaper Oasys - despite the cheaper hardware build quality of the Kronos. And I ask myself when these futile comparisons, ignoring or belittling the essential development steps of the Kronos over the Oasys, will finally stop. |
I'm not trying to belittle the K, it is an awesome instrument. And I'm very aware of the advantages in the K compared to the O, it was just a (simplified) explanation to why Korg chosses to hide the fact that the Kronos is very much an O in its core. That it has some improvements does not negate that fact, and it really is to be expected that a 6-7 year newer instrument has some major advantages. Personally, the usability of the set mode, and the fact that the O cuts sounds when you change combis etc, are definetly major advantages for the K, and as I've said in another thread, the K is the better choice for most users who doesn't need the additional connectors.
Nevertheless, the K is basically a cheaper (as in more affordable, not as less good), allthough upgraded O, and my answer was to who Korg tris to "hide" the O. It is because they are so similar that people will think the K less than it is, and probably focus too much on the similarities.
Additionally, there is no need to belittle the K, as in a side-by-side comparison the O is so much cooler in its very appearance. Which would explain the need to belittle the O compared to the K
_________________
--
OASYS88 002027 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimknopf
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think it is exactly the power of the K at that price, which makes Korg relatively silent about it with Oasys users in mind.
Concerning the hardware quality, I agree completely.
Concerning the appearance, I like the smart black K design and even would prefer it over the O, if it was built with better materials and high quality switches and knobs (though I get by well so far). But such a sturdy black K with adjustable blue LED lights floating around the knobs would be an instrument at a completely other price point.
_________________
Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
