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Why Kronos ?
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Melodialworks Music
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Joined: 23 Feb 2003
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Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kid_nepro_2002 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ErOqYD-i3Q

Cool


Awesome!
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Quinnx



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kronos looks impressive but what exactly does it do for you?
is your goal to perform live
or is it something for your studio.

The workstation concept is nice but if your already doing what you do..
are you not better off sticking to what you already got and know instead of having to start all over again?

and like all new products its probably gonna have bugs etc..

if your a working musician is it worth having to use up your time to relearn all over again?
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pillbug
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quinnx wrote:
Kronos looks impressive but what exactly does it do for you?
is your goal to perform live
or is it something for your studio.

The workstation concept is nice but if your already doing what you do..
are you not better off sticking to what you already got and know instead of having to start all over again?

and like all new products its probably gonna have bugs etc..

if your a working musician is it worth having to use up your time to relearn all over again?

Hi Quinnx,
since you're new on here, care to introduce yourself?
I'm not a working musician, but KRONOS would be a nice addition to my Triton because it brings some new synthesis types.
So, are you a working musician? Which synths/workstation do you use?
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Quinnx



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been using fantomX G and V- synths for some years..
have found that initially the workstation idea is a quick all in one solution to a home studio for those who are new and dont have the ware of it all to put one together..

experience has shown me that in the end the real potential of a good workstation is its ability to take your music on the road rather than being the center of production..

Work-flow on a workstation is usually one way with none of the flexibility of all the parts that make up one if they where separate pieces of gear.

now granted the Kronos is impressive and if your new to the game and want to quickly get into sound creation and music production its easy to want what it has..
However all this synthesis stuff is already available at a much lower cost in software and a computer DAW/Sequencer is always more flexible.

Also sometimes what is represented in these kinda systems is sometimes playing with the truth..
example:
the videos say you have seamlessly switch sets and sounds without any dropout ever..
now my question is how often and how quickly can you do this before you notice a drop out.
on the G you can only do this once every 5-10 seconds any sooner and you get drop outs even though originally advertise that you could switch without dropouts.

When a new workstation like the kronos comes around people are mostly looking to replace everything that they have for the all in one solution..
this is always a mistake but is driven mainly by financial constraints rather than necessity with people wanting to keep ahead of the game.

But the real game is to just make music not keep up with the latest gear.
thats a loose loose situation because as you keep swapping out your gear you keep devaluing your investment and costs keep rising and then your production level my drop because now you have a new learning curve to get over.
Well that my introduction
These are just a few of my experiences as i could probably write a book about the rest..
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Quinnx,

funny to meet you here (we both met at Roland Fantom G forums before).

I'm sure you could write a book about your ways working around the Fantom G weaknesses and trying to make the best of it. Wink
I could write a book too, about no longer accepting a workstation OS like that of the FG, full of weaknesses and issues in each and every area of its functionality, as we both well know. And you know that my willingness to work around all the FG issues (the FG has some really strong sides as well!) is much more limited than yours. Anyway, I'm not here for looking back at the FG: mine will be sold soon without any regrets.

Our concepts seem a bit different: I never bought a workstation to replace a software homestudio: software is much better suited to get that job done (especially sequencing), and I like working with software. I want a workstation as flexible tool for various things:
- play live with as little sound shaping and sound switching problems as possible
- be able to compose right at a keyboard, before completing songs in a software DAW, and then be able to get arrangements back into the workstation to carry them around at will (for band rehearsals, casual sample or midi firing etc.).
- shape my own custom sounds for various musical styles with it

I am sure that I will get all this done significantly better with the Kronos than with the Fantom G.

Let's take seamless switching as example:
one main difference between the Fantom G and the Kronos is that the FG got seamless switching at the cost of a totally unflexible hardwired effect routing, limiting you to one insert effect per patch in a Live Set, while spending 2 of 16 for each of 8 available patches in the Live Set. That's just plain unuseable even for simple purposes, like programming a B3 sound with leslie and overdrive (not speaking of the incredibly weak leslie effects and very lame B3 sample sounds in the FG) and many other often used effect combinations.

In the Kronos you can spend your 12 inserts (yes,nominally less than the FG offers, but effectively the FG has less = 8 pairs hardwired) as you wish, and get seamless switching anyway, not just in one special mode, but across different modes and synth engines. This solves a lot of practical problems in live play, which the FG simply can't.

Before now I write a book Razz I'll stop here: look yourself at the other Kronos specifications, and you will notice that it covers whole sound areas not available in any comparable way on a FG (like big streamed quality Pianos, B3, several VAs and an advanced FM synth able to use DX7 presets, with additional synth engine effects available besides overall effects). At home, yes, you can replace them with software, but live you can only try to replace a tiny bit of these options by limited sample patches (with all the heavy FG sample/project problems which set sharp limits to that effort). And if you like having identical setups in home preparation and live, it's even better working with something as smart as the Kronos.


I know it's always hard to leave a misinvestment (not only of money, but also of time) behind, and sometimes it does not really pay. But I only keep gear that stands the test of time (like my Access TI, which will never be sold, just like my Moogs) and look forward to the Kronos, without oversized enthusiasm, but with well grounded expectations.
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Quinnx



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just may get one or at least try it out but i cant get rid of my fantoms at least not yet.. I have to much time invested in them with patches, sound sets, and alot of other complex stuff..
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I understand that all too well and hope you find good way through with smf export etc.

I was very close to doing the same, relying too much on the G, before I got more and more suspicios that Roland would really go as far as abandon G development altogether, in one go with all the G customers, and have us all end up in a dead end without even remotely completing the halfbaked thing, for halfway decent use. So I reduced FG use to minimal just in time, keeping it out of my projects as far as possible. Roland will never again sell a keyboard to me, as long as I live, no matter whatever they build.
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pillbug
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quinnx wrote:


experience has shown me that in the end the real potential of a good workstation is its ability to take your music on the road rather than being the center of production..

Work-flow on a workstation is usually one way with none of the flexibility of all the parts that make up one if they where separate pieces of gear.

now granted the Kronos is impressive and if your new to the game and want to quickly get into sound creation and music production its easy to want what it has..
However all this synthesis stuff is already available at a much lower cost in software and a computer DAW/Sequencer is always more flexible.

I agree with you. I like Reason and my mac mini for ease of use with sampling, composing, loops, etc... But if I were invited to a gig or jam/rehearsal session, I'd take the workstation.... not my computer.
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Francois
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quinnx wrote:
When a new workstation like the kronos comes around people are mostly looking to replace everything that they have for the all in one solution...


Non sense. Who says that because you buy the Kronos you have to sell all or part of what you have. Supposing that the Kronos becomes my new workhorse, it doesn't mean that I'm going to flog my Receptors, my Q rack or even the older TX-802.

It's just a new sonic arsenal that will expand my options, not reduce them.
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Quinnx



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well then your just one of those people with a little more sense not to be looking for the all in one solution as a replacement and as it should be,
an addition to what you already use.
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jerrythek
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Why Kronos ? Reply with quote

Francois wrote:
Where does the name come from, any reason as to why it was chosen ?


I'm kind of qualified to answer this, since I have been part of the team that have been making these decisions (for over 14 years, for me).

There are many methods for naming products:

- acronyms
- real words that are re-purposed for their meaning, or the image they convey
- new words that are created for the image, or vibe they convey
- letters and/or number combinations

Korg has used all of these methods at various times. When looking for real words to use we have a long library of ideas that are generated by individuals, and discussed as a group. And we never throw out the lists so we can keep building on ideas from previous naming sessions. We explore science terminology, planets, minerals, the periodic tables, musical terms, mythology, various languages, and much more.

But often, we end up choosing a word not for it's literal nature, but just for it's strength/coolness factor/vibe.

Of course we don't want it to have obvious negative influences, and it must be easy to say for all nationalities. But I personally have never felt that the name must have a literal meaning, or reference. I think that's too easy... do an ad for the Triton with a mythological figure holding a spear? Always hated to see those ideas pitched (pun intended!).

So KRONOS sounded cool, felt like it was strong/bold. It started out as CHRONOS, but I was part of the group that liked using the K instead. It looked better to me, was less characters, and did play into the use of K that we've been playing with over the last decade (KAOSS, etc.).

Is it related to the Roman god of time? Nope. The Greek titan who did some very unpleasant things to his kids? Sorry. A tribute to the cheesy/classic '50's sci-fi movie? Nuh uh.

In the end we just like the sound and look of the name.

But if it means something to you, or evokes a specific image that you like, then that's good. And the most important thing is... do you remember it?

Naming is one of the most difficult decisions to organize, because everyone has a different opinion, and preference. What I have always tried to tell people is that over a short period of time a name that seems "difficult" becomes familiar, friendly, and acceptable. My best examples would be how we in the tech/audio/music industry talk with loving reference of things like the CS-80, the 1176, the TX816, and the Bit-One...

OK, the last was more of a joke... but the point is that we get used to many names quickly. Of course a good word-based name with a great literal meaning and image is wonderful, but they are hard to come up with and get consensus for.

I hope this peek behind the curtain was interesting. Ultimately disappointing, of course, not to get a real secret answer/meaning, but at least an honest answer.

Jerry
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Zeroesque
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quinnx wrote:
Well then your just one of those people with a little more sense not to be looking for the all in one solution as a replacement and as it should be,
an addition to what you already use.

I, for one, am absolutely looking forward to using the Kronos as an all-in-one solution -- for live playing, that is. I hate carrying three keyboards and/or a rack of modules because each piece can only do one or two sounds well.

As long as the piano on Kronos is enjoyable enough for live use, I'll be very happy. I've already been sold on the other synth engines.

However, if after getting the Kronos, I end up not using my Receptor and other synths anymore, than you can bet that I'll sell them all in a heartbeat and pare down to just the Kronos. I don't particularly like having a bunch of things to turn on, plug in, dust off, etc. Plugins and sample libraries are just fine in the studio when you want to audition a dozen synths for one part.
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Jan1
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Why Kronos ? Reply with quote

jerrythek wrote:
I hope this peek behind the curtain was interesting. Ultimately disappointing, of course, not to get a real secret answer/meaning, but at least an honest answer.

Jerry

Thanks for taking the time to let us know a little more about why the name Kronos was chosen, Jerry.

At the end of the movie 'Kronos' the machine explodes, so it is a relief to know that the KORG Kronos is not modeled after the alien machine Kronos. Wink
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synthguy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quinnx wrote:
all this synthesis stuff is already available at a much lower cost in software and a computer DAW/Sequencer is always more flexible.

Yes and no. Or I guess I should say, no and yes. Wink

Yes, DAW sequencers are the stuff, although with many hardware sequencers, you can do almost as much and about as easily.

However, I'm a long time quibbler about soft synths making hardware synths obsolete. While it's true that both are basically programs running on either hardware workstations or computers, they're both different worlds. You can't find Absynth or Omnisphere on a workstation keyboard, and you can't find AL-1 or VAST on a PC, or for that matter an Ensoniq TS-10, and most likely never will.

And I'm sure some are aware I'm going to bring up that "sound" thing. All in one PC systems are very clean and free of the distortion and noise that come with hooking up a bunch of keyboards and effects, perhaps even a Leslie, with guitar cords to an analog mixer.

BUT, there's an organic quality imparted to all these synths when you have unique electronics and DACs with their own electrical signatures and impedances running through good wires to their own inputs on a high quality analog console. I have a number of synthesizers and they all sound unique, and not just because they're from different manufacturers. My Roland JD-990 and Fantom X sound completely different from each other. I have effects from ART, Behringer, Alesis, KORG, Roland and Lexicon which impart unique flavors to the sound. Real tubes and Leslies trounce digital copies. The EQs and summing amps of my Studiomaster have a warm quality that the EQ algorithms and summing math of a DAW don't have. And all these elements give each instrument a kind of "real-ness" and "there-ness" which I don't achieve on an all in one DAW.

On top of that, I'm sure most DAW users have one keyboard controller which they use with all their various softsynths, so they tend to get played the same way. In contrast, hardware instruments have their own feel and response, and you tend to play pianos, organs and synthesizers rather differently from each other.

A little hiss and grit comes along for the ride, but a few engineers and artists are adding that back in digitally, because it breathes a bit of life into the production which our drive for perfection has polished out, making it cleaner but rather sterile at the same time.

I'd be using softsynths if I could get a good music PC with no latency, and someday I intend to get one to run a DAW and some choice softsynths like the Arturia Analog Collection. But even then, most of my music will be created on hardware.

As I've said before, both hard and soft synths have something to offer, and neither one makes the other obsolete.

By the way, good to see you haunting this place again, Jerry. Wink
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SpIdErWeB
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As much I agree that workstation and Daw are two different worlds, I still do think you have lot of wrong parts.

First of all, the whole story of having wiring that give a different sound you can't get on a DAW... Myth! You can get a lot of EQ, Compressor and other summing system plugin, even tubes and stuff. When you know how to mix ITB, it sounds as good as OTB. It's easier and faster OTB (and even funnier IMHO), but you can get the sounds done ITB.

The second that you don't have AL-1 or VAST on a DAW... Myth. Of course you don't this exact model but you can have a lot of great plugin with real sound and low anti-aliasing too... and can also have modular system such reaktor or so... I think you probably (as you said) just don't have enough experience in that domain to know, but it's OK.

Does it mean a DAW is better? Nope! And here I agree... Even if we can get lot of plugins with great sounds (I virtually test and used 90% of the existing plugins), even if you can get awesome sounds with great ChannelStrip, etc... It won't be an all-in-one workstation in terms of usage, workflow, control...

It wouldn't be practical to use a DAW on stage, or to jam with some friends, etc... The only keyboard which would be close in that experience, it's the neKo, but there's no comparision possible because it's far to be a Kronos!

So yes, we can get some of features here and there, but it doesn't make it a good alternative solution. Ater all the iPad does have a bigger screen than the Kronos but it doesn't make the iPad better than the Kronos.

Comparing one specs at the time with something else doesn't matter... Because you need to consider the Kronos as a whole, and then find something (a DAW, another Keyboard, spaceship, whatever...) that xan compete with it on all domains: price, size, sounds, workflow, speed, all features such: polyphony, memory, controllers, karma, etc...

Then I will say: there's nothing... not even a DAW which is just one part of the keyboard... And yes a DAW will have a thousand times better sequencer than the Kronos (I wouldn't leave Protools for anything), but it's just 1 feature of the Kronos.

Phil

PS: there's other points I wanted to mention about DAC, clean signal, analog, etc... But yeah, we get the idea Wink

PPS: for information, I do use outboard gear (Neve 1084, LA2A, 1176, etc...) on several boards, such a DDA or a SSL Duality. There are Moog, Virus, 808, 909, 303, Nord, etc... As well as lots of plugin. So I do use both world and know differences between a real thing and a bad emulation. Arturia is good but far from the real thing... And I do love Arturia anyway.
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