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EP1

 
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject: EP1 Reply with quote

Could anyone from Korg clarify if EP1 is just another incarnation of SV1 or not?

I'm asking because I'm quite concerned about Rhodes sounds and EPs in general, and find SV1 much less than convincing, judging by the demos on the Korg site.
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Jon Lord
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read somewhere that the EP1 has nothing to do with SV1

Quote from rich:
Quote:
EP-1 does in fact start with a sample library, but it goes deeper than traditional multisample playback. MDS (Multi-Dimensional Synthesis) lets us separate a sample into different elements- in this case, the pitched content, the hammer sound, and key release noises. We assemble these elements together in a way that gives us precise control over how the sound moves through time.

The practical upsides of MDS are:
1. There's no velocity-switching, so it reacts dynamically throughout the entire velocity range, just like the real instrument naturally would.
2. You have control over physical properties of the instrument, like hammer width and attack brightness.
3. We can control time-based elements like decay and release without having to introduce more processing.

So... Is it modeling? I suppose this depends on your definition of the word, but since it goes so much deeper into the behavior of the instrument than a traditional sample-playback engine would, the word "modeling" should be appropriate.

And my guess is SV1 is just pure samples and nothing else, im just guessing so i might be wrong
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mymusic42
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:32 pm    Post subject: sv1 effects Reply with quote

i thought i heard rich say in the 50 minute kronos video that the EP1 may have inherited the FX from the SV1.
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as far as I know sv-1 is exactly (and indeed sounds like) sample based modeling.

I just would like to know if they are more or less identical concerning EP sounds.
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burningbusch
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, to my knowledge the SV-1 is not using "sample based modeling." (I'll keep using that term even though it's probably not completely accurate according to RichF). According to what RichF posted above the EP-1 on the Kronos has no audible velocity switching. You can hear velocity switching on the SV-1 Rhodes and Wurly so I'm quite sure it is simply sampled based. That's not to knock the SV-1, I hear velocity switching on the Nord, Roland Yamaha and just about everyone else.

The only examples I can think of that have combined sampling and modeling in a similar manner to what Rich described is Yamaha with the CP1/5/50 and Digidesign's Velvet. They have the tonal accuracy of samples with the flexibility and linear velocity response of modeling.

Pure modeling would include Logic's EVP88, Lounge Lizard, Modartt PianoTeq and GSi.

The Kronos should also include the OASYS Rhodes (in the basic ROM) plus some others in the EXs4 Vintage Keyboards. These are sample based.

I am looking forward to the EP-1. The ability to customize your sound is very cool and something you just can't do with samples.

Busch.
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aren't you the one who made the excellent custom patches for the CP-1, which were published in a video?
If so, I can only congraulate you for doing so: they sound much better than what I had heard from CP-1 factory patches before.

I have doubts concerning the SV-1, because hardly any real Rhodes samples would sound like that from my view. It has a strange, artifical modeling sound in my ears. Korg talks at least of SOME form of advanced sampling techique in their user manual (named "Real eXperience" and called "three dimensional" in contrast to pure sampling, whatever that means). And in your list of sample based modelling you could add Roland's ARX-02.


In the end I don't care much how it is done.
But I do care if it comes close to at least one well maintained MkI or to different real Rhodes sounds.
I only see two candidates coming really close to that so far: Clavia (Elektro 3, Nord Stage 2) and Yamaha's CP1/CP5 with your user patches.

I was already concerned about Korg Rhodes sounds in times when Brian Auger tried to use the M3 to replace his old gear, and didn't even come close to the rough "barking valve" Rhodes sound he preferred since real Rhodes times.
All the artificial bell/vibraphone-like "pling, plong" sounds, or the added pseudo-noise, don't make a fine Rhodes.


Any enlightening answers from Korg staff, or some EP-1 demos to get a first impression appreciated very much!
And just to put things straight: I'm not asking that aiming to bash either, I'm rather hoping to hear some good Rhodes stuff coming with the Kronos.
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burningbusch
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I did do those updated patches for the CP-1. Thanks for the compliment.

Here's an example of one of the Kronos Rhodes. Remember you have four Rhodes and two Wurly models to choose from. I don't know which this is based on. Also, as I said they look to be highly tweakable. There are parameters for: Harmonic Sound Level, Attack Noise, Level, Release Noise Level, Attack Brightness, Hammer Width.

http://www.korg.co.uk/downloads/kronos/media/Ubiquity.mp3

Also, I'm in the process of sampling my Mark V Rhodes. This piano was set up by David Ells who is an excellent tech. All the hammer tips replaced and has a beautiful balanced tone. The example posted below is fairly early on. There are no release samples (and they make a sizable difference). The example is 16 velocity levels so there are NO audible velocity jumps. I went back and re-sampled at 20 velocity levels for both sustain and release. I'm still currently working on that version. What you're hearing below is from a Motif XF. I would love to get this into the Kronos but it's going to be big and exceed the RAM that's currently available unless I severely cut it down. I need VMT or more RAM on the Kronos.

http://www.purgatorycreek.com/downloads/MarkV1.mp3

I think (hope) the EP-1 EPs are going to be excellent but you can never have too much of a good thing and Rhodes are always a good thing.

Busch.
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apex
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

burningbusch wrote:
Yes I did do those updated patches for the CP-1. Thanks for the compliment.

Here's an example of one of the Kronos Rhodes. Remember you have four Rhodes and two Wurly models to choose from. I don't know which this is based on. Also, as I said they look to be highly tweakable. There are parameters for: Harmonic Sound Level, Attack Noise, Level, Release Noise Level, Attack Brightness, Hammer Width.

http://www.korg.co.uk/downloads/kronos/media/Ubiquity.mp3

Also, I'm in the process of sampling my Mark V Rhodes. This piano was set up by David Ells who is an excellent tech. All the hammer tips replaced and has a beautiful balanced tone. The example posted below is fairly early on. There are no release samples (and they make a sizable difference). The example is 16 velocity levels so there are NO audible velocity jumps. I went back and re-sampled at 20 velocity levels for both sustain and release. I'm still currently working on that version. What you're hearing below is from a Motif XF. I would love to get this into the Kronos but it's going to be big and exceed the RAM that's currently available unless I severely cut it down. I need VMT or more RAM on the Kronos.

http://www.purgatorycreek.com/downloads/MarkV1.mp3

I think (hope) the EP-1 EPs are going to be excellent but you can never have too much of a good thing and Rhodes are always a good thing.

Busch.


YEA... super severely!!! i think its only like 273 MB left after the stuff from Korg is loaded.... are you sampling this instrument yourself and then loading the samples into the XF? how do you gauge your velocity levels... i mean 20 levels is quite detailed....
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burningbusch
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much. I'm sampling at 1db increments for both sustain and release. While it's very time consuming it gives you a lot of flexibility when mapping the instrument out. If I want to reduce it to a 10 velocity layer instrument, I take out every other layer and definitely be in the ballpark.

It can still be a great sounding/playing instrument with less layers--20 is overkill really. And I really want to get this on the Kronos. Since the Kronos was announced, I've lost my enthusiasm for the Motif XF.

Like I said, the example is without release layers which do add to the authenticity.

Busch.
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:21 am    Post subject: Re: EP1 Reply with quote

jimknopf wrote:
Could anyone from Korg clarify if EP1 is just another incarnation of SV1 or not?


Hi Jim!

The EP-1's electric pianos are completely different from those of the SV-1; they're different sounds, and are created by different technology. Some of the EP-1's effects, however, are based on those used in the SV-1.

Hope this helps!

Best regards,

Dan
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Dan: thanks for clarifying!
I'm just a bit worried by what I hear so far.

It's already good news for me that EP-1 is not identical to SV-1.
Still, I'm underwhelmed by the few Rhodes examples I hear in the first demos & presentation of the Kronos.

@burningbush
I will be patient to get e better picture of the EP-1 sounds.
High tweakability only helps if the basic sound is ok.

Your MkV sounds excellent again, and MUCH better than what can be heard from the Kronos in the example you name (listening to that had made me worry). I would rather play such an instrument as your Mk V, even with 8-12 layers, than an unreal sounding highly tweakable one. I'm using the software Scarbee Rhodes and have no velocity jump peoblems with those 12 layers, and nearly tolerable ones with 8 layers in loud band context, played from a notebook.

If you would offer your MkV for the Kronos I would certainly buy it, just to be sure to have at least ONE reliable first class Rhodes on board. It would be fine, if you could offer two velocities in this case (maybe 8 and 16 velocities?), to be able to use either an ECO version or a bigger set.

@apex
The sample memory available on the Kronos is not static.
I think it should be easy to kick off stuff you don't need personally from the auto-load list and put in your own preferred patches and samples.
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aquablue



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you saying that the CP1/5 have better rhodes than the Kronos? How about the acoustic piano of the Cp1?

Given that the CP1 action is better, I think the CP1 if it has better pianos would be the better buy for 88 keys combined with a kronos 61.
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