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Sequencing max Poly and audio recording?
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Quinnx



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:11 pm    Post subject: Sequencing max Poly and audio recording? Reply with quote

On the Kronos
What and how is polyphony allocated and what is the max..
specs say
Maximum Polyphony*1*2:

SGX-1: 100 voices*3
EP-1: 104 voices
HD-1: 140 voices
AL-1: 80 voices
CX-3: 200 voices
STR-1: 40 voices
MOD-7: 52 voices
MS-20EX: 40 voices
PolysixEX: 180 voices

In a 16 track environment how does this play out..
is it total of all of these which is 936 poly if each channel had one of each above?
so to have all of these going at once individually would be 9 channels
would this give me a total of 936 poly performance?

16 track audio recording
there is a reference to an 80 minute mono limit on recording
is this total recording time accross all 16 channels or is this per channel/track

Mono/stereo
are the 16 audio tracks mono only or can they be stereo?
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X-Trade
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Sequencing max Poly and audio recording? Reply with quote

Quinnx wrote:
On the Kronos
What and how is polyphony allocated and what is the max..
specs say
Maximum Polyphony*1*2:

SGX-1: 100 voices*3
EP-1: 104 voices
HD-1: 140 voices
AL-1: 80 voices
CX-3: 200 voices
STR-1: 40 voices
MOD-7: 52 voices
MS-20EX: 40 voices
PolysixEX: 180 voices

In a 16 track environment how does this play out..
is it total of all of these which is 936 poly if each channel had one of each above?
so to have all of these going at once individually would be 9 channels
would this give me a total of 936 poly performance?

Polyphony is total. So if you have one CX-3 program (for example in program mode), that program will have 200 voice polyphony.

I think with dynamic voice allocation technology in the KRONOS, it gets complicated when two or more engines are used, because they only use up polyphony when they are actually triggered. So I think if you had CX-3 in one zone and SGX-1 in another zone or MIDI channel, the CX3 could still technically play 200 notes at once if the other channel were playing nothing. Probably.

But the polyphony limits aren't per-track. As a simple example, say you have SGX-1 playing four notes/voices at once on track/timbre one. Then another SGX-1 on track/timbre two would only have 96 note polyphony left, before note stealing from either of the timbres occurs.
Similarly if you had a CX-3 on track/timbre 2 instead of that 2nd SGX-1, then the CX-3 would have 192 voices left, before stealing occurs.

Obviously these figures are actually quite high anyway and I'd be surprised if you normally ran into note stealing. The polyphony is much higher than the 62 notes on many of the Tritons for example in most cases.

Note I say 'track/timbre' because in combi mode you have 'timbres', but in sequencer mode you have 'tracks'. Either way, they reference a single program number.

Quote:
Mono/stereo
are the 16 tracks mono only or can they be stereo?

16 mono or up to 8 stereo. A stereo track effectively uses two mono ones.
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Quinnx



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So are we say then that if i have a midi setup of 16 track and are using STR-1 this reduces the kronos to a 40 voice poly especially if this patch is heavily used

and if i have cx3 on another channel i wont have 200 poly because str-1 is in use.
so if we do the math.. between the two..

for every note played with STR-1 I loose 5 voices off the CX3
so if im playing a 3 note sustained chord with STR-1 i eat up 30 poly leaving 170 for CX3

But yet SX1 claims 100 poly at dual stereo is 400 poly..

is this telling us that the total max poly of the kronos is 400?
which in turn is telling us that STR-1 uses 5 dual stereo tones/osc?
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X-Trade
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'vve got the general idea, yeah!

I'm not sure on the specifics though, I've not read the bits about what you mention something about 'dual stereo' on the SGX-1.
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Current Gear: Kronos 61, RADIAS-R, Volca Bass, ESX-1, microKorg, MS2000B, R3, Kaossilator Pro +, MiniKP, AX3000B, nanoKontrol, nanoPad MK II,
Other Mfgrs: Moog Sub37, Roland Boutique JX03, Novation MiniNova, Akai APC40, MOTU MIDI TimePiece 2, ART Pro VLA, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40.
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Quinnx



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm not sure on the specifics though, I've not read the bits about what you mention something about 'dual stereo' on the SGX-1.


yeah its in the fine print at the bottom

Maximum Polyphony*1*2:

SGX-1: 100 voices*3
EP-1: 104 voices
HD-1: 140 voices
AL-1: 80 voices
CX-3: 200 voices
STR-1: 40 voices
MOD-7: 52 voices
MS-20EX: 40 voices
PolysixEX: 180 voices

*1 Maximum polyphony depends on the kind of synthesis engines and the number of effects being used.
*2 KRONOS dynamically allocates voices to multiple synthesis engines when they are used simultaneously.
*3 100 dual-stereo notes (It corresponds to 400 voices in the maximum.)
Quote:
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danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quinnx wrote:
But yet SX1 claims 100 poly at dual stereo is 400 poly..


Yes - every note on the SGX-1 plays two stereo samples, one set for the main sound, and the other for the resonance sound. You can play 100 of these dual-stereo notes.

Quinnx wrote:
is this telling us that the total max poly of the kronos is 400?
which in turn is telling us that STR-1 uses 5 dual stereo tones/osc?


It works differently than this. Each synth engine is different; some use more processing power than others. They each use different code internally, and aren't simply made of the same building blocks (e.g. "tones" or "oscillators").

You refer to DAWs and software in other posts, so presumably you're familiar with how different plug-ins use different amounts of CPU processing. The KRONOS synth engines are similar in this regard.
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Quinnx



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that...

So are we saying that in a 16 midi channel recording on the kronos that poly is restricted to each engine that is in use or shared

example

channels 1-4 use SGX-1 engine which has a max of 100 poly..
because im using 4 SGX-1 is then this 100 poly shared between these 4 channels
plus
if channels 5-8 are using the STR-1 which has max poly of 40
again is this 40 shared across 5 and 8

between the channels 1-8 do i have access to a maximum poly of 140?
or is there an absolute maximum limit on poly in the kronos or as i posted before is it true to say if you use one of each or the 9 engines, and play them all simultaneous is the maximum poly the total poly sum of each of those 9 engines or is there a cieling limit on poly in multi timbrel mode that the kronos has?

Hope this is not too confusing...
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quinnx wrote:
Thanks for that...

So are we saying that in a 16 midi channel recording on the kronos that poly is restricted to each engine that is in use or shared

example

channels 1-4 use SGX-1 engine which has a max of 100 poly..
because im using 4 SGX-1 is then this 100 poly shared between these 4 channels
plus
if channels 5-8 are using the STR-1 which has max poly of 40
again is this 40 shared across 5 and 8

between the channels 1-8 do i have access to a maximum poly of 140?
or is there an absolute maximum limit on poly in the kronos or as i posted before is it true to say if you use one of each or the 9 engines, and play them all simultaneous is the maximum poly the total poly sum of each of those 9 engines or is there a cieling limit on poly in multi timbrel mode that the kronos has?

Hope this is not too confusing...


Kronos uses a CPU to play its engines.
The same CPU is shared by all engines.
The numbers below are simplifications, but they should give you some idea of how it works:
100 voices of SGX-1 uses 100% of the available power for voices.
(There's still CPU power left for effects.)
50 voices of SGX-1 use 50% of the available power for voices.
Similarly, 40 voices of STR-1 uses 100% of the available power for voices, and 20 voices of STR-1 uses 50% of that available power.
Together, 50 voices of SGX-1 and 20 voices of STR-1 would use 100% of the available power for voices.
Etc.

You have mentioned using a DAW and software plug-ins.
They work in a similar fashion, although KRONOS does a number of sophisticated things to make sure that you don't have CPU overs.

- Dan
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For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
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Flash & The Pan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

danatkorg wrote:
Quinnx wrote:
Thanks for that...

So are we saying that in a 16 midi channel recording on the kronos that poly is restricted to each engine that is in use or shared

example

channels 1-4 use SGX-1 engine which has a max of 100 poly..
because im using 4 SGX-1 is then this 100 poly shared between these 4 channels
plus
if channels 5-8 are using the STR-1 which has max poly of 40
again is this 40 shared across 5 and 8

between the channels 1-8 do i have access to a maximum poly of 140?
or is there an absolute maximum limit on poly in the kronos or as i posted before is it true to say if you use one of each or the 9 engines, and play them all simultaneous is the maximum poly the total poly sum of each of those 9 engines or is there a cieling limit on poly in multi timbrel mode that the kronos has?

Hope this is not too confusing...


Kronos uses a CPU to play its engines.
The same CPU is shared by all engines.
The numbers below are simplifications, but they should give you some idea of how it works:
100 voices of SGX-1 uses 100% of the available power for voices.
(There's still CPU power left for effects.)
50 voices of SGX-1 use 50% of the available power for voices.
Similarly, 40 voices of STR-1 uses 100% of the available power for voices, and 20 voices of STR-1 uses 50% of that available power.
Together, 50 voices of SGX-1 and 20 voices of STR-1 would use 100% of the available power for voices.
Etc.

You have mentioned using a DAW and software plug-ins.
They work in a similar fashion, although KRONOS does a number of sophisticated things to make sure that you don't have CPU overs.

- Dan



That's all?...no good
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flash & The Pan wrote:
danatkorg wrote:
Quinnx wrote:
Thanks for that...

So are we saying that in a 16 midi channel recording on the kronos that poly is restricted to each engine that is in use or shared

example

channels 1-4 use SGX-1 engine which has a max of 100 poly..
because im using 4 SGX-1 is then this 100 poly shared between these 4 channels
plus
if channels 5-8 are using the STR-1 which has max poly of 40
again is this 40 shared across 5 and 8

between the channels 1-8 do i have access to a maximum poly of 140?
or is there an absolute maximum limit on poly in the kronos or as i posted before is it true to say if you use one of each or the 9 engines, and play them all simultaneous is the maximum poly the total poly sum of each of those 9 engines or is there a cieling limit on poly in multi timbrel mode that the kronos has?

Hope this is not too confusing...


Kronos uses a CPU to play its engines.
The same CPU is shared by all engines.
The numbers below are simplifications, but they should give you some idea of how it works:
100 voices of SGX-1 uses 100% of the available power for voices.
(There's still CPU power left for effects.)
50 voices of SGX-1 use 50% of the available power for voices.
Similarly, 40 voices of STR-1 uses 100% of the available power for voices, and 20 voices of STR-1 uses 50% of that available power.
Together, 50 voices of SGX-1 and 20 voices of STR-1 would use 100% of the available power for voices.
Etc.

You have mentioned using a DAW and software plug-ins.
They work in a similar fashion, although KRONOS does a number of sophisticated things to make sure that you don't have CPU overs.

- Dan



That's all?...no good


How so?
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Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
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Quinnx



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So in reality the lower poly engines like the STR-1 and the MS20EX have a heavier payload where as using a combination like

CX-3: 200 voices
PolysixEX: 180 voices
SGX-1: 100 voices*3

Would give you many more poly which would be an average of 160 poly between the 3 if use together
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CfNorENa
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danatkorg wrote:
100 voices of SGX-1 uses 100% of the available power for voices.


Well, there goes my whole idea of using multiple, overlapping, long-sustaining 50-note chords. I guess I won't be buying a Kronos after all.


Laughing
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SpIdErWeB
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always did wanted to listen a song by guys that "need" and want/wish a keyboard with 512 voices of polyphonies.

I do understand we always want more, mainly if we really want to do a full production on a keyboard (which is not possible IMHO, for other reasons), mainly because polyphony drops quickly when we start stacking two sounds, playing full chords with sustain and so on...

But there's some limits in a song or it will just be "over-produced" with way too much stuff.

Of course, some feature such "freeze/unfreeze" would solve a lot of issues...

Phil
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget, you can always record MIDI tracks to the 16 audio tracks at some point, to free up polyphony if you need it.
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Quinnx



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seen something referring to a 80 minute max mono audio recording..
is this per track or total for the whole project?

Also if recording audio what are the routing option with FXs
will all audio always be recorded with all FXs or is there an option to record what is being played without the FX

also since all tracks are mono is there an option to set any or all midi parts to mono out put while monitoring ot playing?
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