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Why only 2 Oscs?
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T7
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Joined: 13 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

danatkorg wrote:
Megakazbek wrote:
danatkorg wrote:
EXi are the EXpansion Instruments: AL-1, CX-3, STR-1, PolysixEX, MS-20EX, MOD-7, EP-1, SGX-1. Everything except for the HD-1.

What I can't understand is why HD-1 is made separate from all other engines. It doesn't make any sense at all, but only causes problems - we can't layer HD-1 with other engines in the same program, we need separate banks dedicated for it, etc - basically it completely doesn't follow the "rules" of the rest of the Kronos, for no reason at all.


It's an anachronism, I agree.


Don't you mean anakronism? Wink


Last edited by T7 on Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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ozy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="danatkorg"]
Megakazbek wrote:
danatkorg wrote:
EXi are the EXpansion Instruments: AL-1, CX-3, STR-1, PolysixEX, MS-20EX, MOD-7, EP-1, SGX-1. Everything except for the HD-1.

What I can't understand is why HD-1 is made separate from all other engines. It's an anachronism, I agree.


this I asked the first day: "are engines really just components of a unique synthesis chain, or just layered"? Got a slighlty different answer. Whatever. Hope the rest of info is more precise.

Or, better: I'll definitely wait for the manual (reference guide) before I choose.

Will the reference guide be available before the hardware is shipped?
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robinkle
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's good to know though that you can program the HD-1 as a "fake" VA synth though, it's a small compromise. You can pick sawtooth wave as an oscillator for example.

But still would be nice to make a combination between the HD-1 and all the other engines. Why not upgrade to 3 or 4 synth engines in a program while you are at it. Smile
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EvilDragon
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan, so, it's true that for HD-1 programs we have to use a dedicated program bank on Kronos? Bummer if so...
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thekeymaster
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked this in another thread.Yes it is the same system has found on the OASYS. You have to assign your banks to store either HD-1 programs or EXi programs. It is a slight drawback but you can still get round it in Combi mode if you wish to mix and match your fave HD-1 or EXi programs together.
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ozy wrote:
danatkorg wrote:
Megakazbek wrote:
danatkorg wrote:
EXi are the EXpansion Instruments: AL-1, CX-3, STR-1, PolysixEX, MS-20EX, MOD-7, EP-1, SGX-1. Everything except for the HD-1.

What I can't understand is why HD-1 is made separate from all other engines. It's an anachronism, I agree.


this I asked the first day: "are engines really just components of a unique synthesis chain, or just layered"? Got a slighlty different answer. Whatever. Hope the rest of info is more precise.



Can you explain what you mean by the above? I'm not sure how what I wrote resulted in that comment...
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Dan Phillips
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EvilDragon wrote:
Dan, so, it's true that for HD-1 programs we have to use a dedicated program bank on Kronos?


Yes, this is the same as on the OASYS.
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ozy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danatkorg wrote:
Can you explain what you mean by the above? I'm not sure how what I wrote resulted in that comment...


Rolling Eyes

I definitely must hone my English skills.

Let me try again.

Can I take a "hd-1" sax or flute or vocal waveform and use it into the "ms-20" synthesis chain while remaining in the digital domain?

Can I, remaining in the digital domain, use the ms20 filter in a HD1 program?

Can I, remaining in the digital domain, use the ms20 filter in a str-1 program?

"yes" or "no" will suffice, thanks.

That's the third time I ask.

If the answer is "yes", then the kronos synth engines can be enchained an the kronos is a huge modular digital synth.

If the answer is "no", then it is not. And the nine engines can just be juxtaposed, layered, whatever you call it. It's like having 9 synth rack modules (better than "engines") mixed.
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EvilDragon
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ozy wrote:
Can I take a "hd-1" sax or flute or vocal waveform and use it into the "ms-20" synthesis chain while remaining in the digital domain?


MS-20 does have an audio input, however it is not clear (from the specs sheet) if you can input PCM data through it.

ozy wrote:
Can I, remaining in the digital domain, use the ms20 filter in a HD1 program?


No.

ozy wrote:
Can I, remaining in the digital domain, use the ms20 filter in a str-1 program?


No.
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rrricky rrrecordo
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danatkorg wrote:


As Ozy noted, that's how actual sub-oscillators work: they derive their frequency from the main oscillator, and so they're limited to octave multiples. This is exactly the way they work on analog synths (e.g., Roland Juno 6/60/106).


The Juno's DCO is explained in some detail here:

http://www.electricdruid.net/index.php?page=info.junodcos
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ozy wrote:
danatkorg wrote:
Can you explain what you mean by the above? I'm not sure how what I wrote resulted in that comment...


Rolling Eyes

I definitely must hone my English skills.


OK, I wasn't crazy. Very Happy

The ability to route signals is separate from the question of HD-1 and EXi banks.

The STR-1, MS-20EX, and MOD-7 have "EXi audio inputs."
The source of these inputs can be:
* Analog, USB, or S/PDIF inputs
* Internal audio busses, including the "Rec" and "FX Control" busses
* The * outputs* of any of the insert, master, or "total" effects
* The signal from any of the audio outputs (like connecting a cable from the output back to the input, in the digital domain)

In Combi mode, you can take any Program (including HD-1), send it to one of the busses or through any effects, and then back into an EXi audio input.

An important caveat is that this signal is the entire audio output of the Program, all voices summed together. Some ASCII art for you:

Voice 1--\
Voice 2 ---------> EXi audio input--->MS-20EX
Voice 3--/

So, you can use the EXi audio inputs to use the STR-1, MS-20EX, and MOD-7 like effects processors. In the example above, each note of the MS-20EX can *process* the audio input separately - for instance, with different filter settings based on note number (it could get much more complex than that, of course). However, the EXi audio input does NOT provide individual per-voice connections, so the only way of creating a voice-chain is to restrict yourself to a single, mono voice.

Hope this helps,

Dan
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ozy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think people are spending a lor of time waxing poetic on the Kronos improvements over Oasys,

while, if I am getting it right, what's really powerful under the K's hood has been barely discussed.

I definitely need to read the reference guide (short of having a Kronos lent to me for 1 month of course, which is slightly less than probable).

thx Danat:

PS: how about a complimentary "pdf" of the user and reference guide? Rolling Eyes
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Timo
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan, thank you indeed for all your comprehensive and informative answers. The program and polyphony architecture makes sense now.

danatkorg wrote:
As Ozy noted, that's how actual sub-oscillators work


I understand now. MOSS spoilt me with an independent and very versatile sub-oscillator so I kinda thought all sub oscillators were the same. Smile

Three oscillators are very useful, though. I'm always using the sub-oscillator on the MOSS as a third oscillator, and I use the third oscillator on my Virus a lot.

The way the Virus works (or at least the Virus B [and C] does at least) was that you have 24 voice polyphony for any patch that uses the two main oscillators. If you choose to enable the third oscillator, it knocks the voice count down by a third. So it offers dynamic voice allocation.

Given that in the AL-1 if you want a third oscillator you'll have to use an entirely new patch anyway, this would half the polyphony as you're using two patches. Furthermore it's slightly more inconvenient as both patches aren't tied together.

I put forward the idea that the Virus implementation is more flexible and usable, in that a third oscillator can be switched in at any time (if or when you choose to use it), and polyphony is cut down only when it is enabled.

A feature request for future endeavours, perhaps? (Although I'm sure it would be at the very bottom of any priority list.)

Thanks again for all your valuable info. Smile Much apprec.
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Why only 2 Oscs? Reply with quote

Biopharmer wrote:
All of Korg's VAs, including the AL-1, only have 2 oscillators. Why? Would it kill them to add a third?

Oh, I'm sure it can sound amazing, and Mike Conway's videos have sold me already, but still... I'm used to having 1 oscillator at -12 semitones, one at 0, and one at +12, and then detuning the two higher ones slightly. It sounds awesome. But you can't really do that with 2. Unless I missed that there are sub-oscillators.

Anyway, I'm liking what i'm hearing though, i'll just have to come up with new programming habits.



I've just realised the solution to your requirement - use MOD-7 as a traditional subtractive synthesizer.

It provides 6 oscillators - per voice - and they can be simply played in parallel per voice and without FM (and can be detuned or transposed). They even have a superior Filter, Envelope, LFO and AMS architecture to AL-1. At 50 note polyphony, that's a maximum of 300 oscillators at your disposal. Is that enough??? Smile

Indeed - MOD-7 provides one of the most fantastic features on any modern synthesizer - the ability for each of the 6 oscillators to be triggered at a random phase, which completely eliminates that in-phase 'twang' you hear too often on Virtual Analogue Synths - it makes it sound totally natural and incredibly analogue.

Dan Phillip's exquisite tutorial in the Parameter Guide of the OASYS and surely will be in the Kronos manual is a MUST READ. It guides you through the main features of MOD-7 in beautiful clarity and the sounds you design are a real eye opener. One of the sounds he guides you though triggered this post - he shows you how to build a 6 sawtooth pad with random phase and no FM and it's just bloody brilliant. In fact - a slight modification of this (i.e. making MOD-7 sawtooth waves using a two operator FM stack with the modularor level at 65) give the closest thinkg I've heard in the digital world to a Yamaha CS80 sawtooth (and I own three CS80s). A MOD-7 FM generated sawtooth is _very_ Yamaha CS in nature.

So overall, MOD-7 can work as a fabulous Virtual Analogue Synth without FM and give you 6 oscillators with a choice of waves, wave shaping and a ring modulator - per voice (that's 52 Ring Modularots!!). So all your prayers will be answred without doubt.

Kevin.
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mkpcola



Joined: 21 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm...
My Korg PA2XPro has 120 voices provided by 120 oscillators.
I can use up to 16 oscillators per program/sound ; each oscillator has its own parameters(LFO, etc). I can layer up to 3 sounds plus one sound for left hand play(with or without arranger function).
I wonder giving the same sound engine as M3, which is EDS, why PA2Xpro has different oscillators set up..
What about new synth engine for Kronos that give similar setup?
New synth engine could be called DNC-1? Very Happy
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