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jimknopf
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
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 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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Jahrome, sorry, but I strongly disagree on using a workstation for anything sample related as well.
As I see from your signature, you use a FantomG like me (so far): this workstation is THE VERY LAST THING I would use for any sample related job. It's just silly restricted in what it can do and how it is done. I prefer my computer ten times over ANYTHING I could do on a hardware workstation like that.
Just try for yourself by testing some decent software and comparing both, and you will notice the vast superiority of powerful software programs like the one Burningbush pointed you to. |
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jahrome
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 378
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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I must be in the wrong thread. For a second, I thought we were talking about destructive sample editing (truncating, cut, copy, normalize, reverse, rate convert, crossfade, slicing, etc.) I do not need a separate computer and dedicated software to do these chores. Besides, a what is Kronos after all? A dedicated computer and software, with a touch screen interface.
Yes, I use the Fantom G. and its onboard sample capabilities (or lack of) is the reason why I wrote this thread in the first place. The M3 is a far superior sample editor is some aspects. But Roland beats the other workstations as far as the GUI of its workstations and the technology used for time stretching and pitch shifting samples.
For every argument you make about not using the sample editing of a keyboard workstation because a "computer" is more powerful...the same argument could be made that you don't need Kronos at all since you can buy Kontakt or any other similar product for a fraction of the price.
So what's next? You don't need Kronos to have onboard effects or a sequcencer since you have more powerful options using a "computer and software." 
_________________
Tool box: Kronos 61, Fantom FA06, ASR-10, MPCX, MPC Live, and MPC 4000. |
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sani
Senior Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2002
Posts: 354
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| jahrome wrote: |
For every argument you make about not using the sample editing of a keyboard workstation because a "computer" is more powerful...the same argument could be made that you don't need Kronos at all since you can buy Kontakt or any other similar product for a fraction of the price.
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Well, on stage a compact keyboard with dedicated crash prove OS is certainly a better choice than a conventional computer. But, there are things where the computer is faster and easier to use. Sampling is one of those tasks, sequencing an other.
And to answer you about your questions, yes a I have a workstation, in fact I use them since the early nineties. I have a lot of sampling experience, I have made all my samples and multisamples by myself (more than 1000 single samples looped by myself, certainly over 100 of selfcreated multisamples), using an Akai some 10 years ago. So, I really know how to sample either on a computer or on a workstation/sampler.
Let me tell you just once again:
it's easier and faster on a PC. No, I'm not stupid, I know where to find fade in/out, normalize on my fantom g or m3 or even the motif (owning a fantom g right know). Selecting the end of a sample on a software editor and than hitting a shortcut key to apply a fade out to the sample is easier or at least much faster than doing that same job on a workstation using cursor keys, dials or whatever you want.
Please, don't try to beat a dead horse here, just because you hate software. Let's put subjective opinions aside. Give me 30 samples about 10 seconds long and tell me to apply a fade out to the last 3 seconds on each sample and than normalize each sample to -3db. I'll do it on software, you do it on your fantom g. Let's record it on a camera and put it on youtube. I bet that I'll be twice as fast. Not to mention that I can anytime undo an operation if I make a mistake. And that's my point. There is no point in forcing to use a workstation for every single task. Besides that, I can't understand a mind that "hates a mouse and a keyboard" but likes cursor keys and dials. It's often better to combine tools to achieve the best and fastest results. I'll select my car any time to travel 100 miles. But for shopping around the corner I prefer to take a walk. |
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SpIdErWeB
Full Member
Joined: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 209
Location: France
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:27 am Post subject: |
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That's not right...
First of all, you're assuming a computer can do it faster... Hello? Kronos IS a computer inside.
You're also assuming a keyboard and mouse is faster than dedicated surface? Why every Pro-station do have dedicated controllers then? Also, you forget the touchscreen which is way more efficient than keyboard&mouse. Having worked on touchscreen development, I can guarantee it. That's the reason we can see it everywhere now, from phone to workstation.
You're assuming a better software for editing can do things better and faster... Good, that's the point! Having large colour touchscreen, computer power and dedicated surface control, the Kronos would be a killer with a better Sample Editor. Everything you do on a computer could be done on a Kronos, if you don't understand that I can't help you...
Phil |
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jahrome
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 378
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| SpIdErWeB wrote: | That's not right...
First of all, you're assuming a computer can do it faster... Hello? Kronos IS a computer inside.
You're also assuming a keyboard and mouse is faster than dedicated surface? Why every Pro-station do have dedicated controllers then? Also, you forget the touchscreen which is way more efficient than keyboard&mouse. Having worked on touchscreen development, I can guarantee it. That's the reason we can see it everywhere now, from phone to workstation.
You're assuming a better software for editing can do things better and faster... Good, that's the point! Having large colour touchscreen, computer power and dedicated surface control, the Kronos would be a killer with a better Sample Editor. Everything you do on a computer could be done on a Kronos, if you don't understand that I can't help you...
Phil |
Thanks Phil. Excellent job of summing up my entire point:
1. Kronos is a computer
2. Improvements to sampler editor is a plus
3. Better sampe editor would mean no need to use an additional computer, dedicated sample editing software, keyboard, and mouse for what could be accomplished onboard
@Sani
If Roland actually stops sleeping and improve the Fantom G, you could possibly have your mouse for editing samples and the sequencer. Its GUI is already more than adequate for sample editing...it just doesn't have many sample editing tools..which is a shame.
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Tool box: Kronos 61, Fantom FA06, ASR-10, MPCX, MPC Live, and MPC 4000. |
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Scott
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| burningbusch wrote: | | OK the dog food comment was over the top. IMO, Nord makes very pragmatic gigging instruments but I'm not interested in loading my Kronos with Nord, Kurzweil, Yamaha or Roland samples. All of these sounds are heavily compromised in order for them to fit within the confines of limited ROM/RAM. The big leap the Kronos provides is moving away from compromised sounds. That's what interests me. |
I have to say that I like the Nord EPs and their Bosendorfer better than what I've heard out of an M3, but, like you, I expect the Kronos to exceed what Nord has done here.
But actually, loading some Nord and other keyboard samples into the Kronos does interest me. There's some stuff I really like in the Nord sample library, for example. I intend to keep a Nord in my studio, but if I don't want to bring every keyboard to a gig, I do like the possibility of "resampling" some of those sounds into a Kronos so I still have access to some version of them without having to bring along another keyboard. Even if it doesn't sound quite as good as the "first generation," it may be fine for my live purposes. So that's something I'm thinking about doing, unless I'm surprised and find equivalent or better versions of those sounds in the Kronos already. |
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sani
Senior Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2002
Posts: 354
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| SpIdErWeB wrote: | That's not right...
First of all, you're assuming a computer can do it faster... Hello? Kronos IS a computer inside. |
So what? My Wii is a computer too. And I can surf the web with it. Does it automatically mean that a conventional computer is not faster just because another device is also a computer? Hello? A M1 is also a computer. Even my car is a computer in some way.
| SpIdErWeB wrote: | | You're also assuming a keyboard and mouse is faster than dedicated surface? Why every Pro-station do have dedicated controllers then? Also, you forget the touchscreen which is way more efficient than keyboard&mouse. Having worked on touchscreen development, I can guarantee it. That's the reason we can see it everywhere now, from phone to workstation. |
You make logically wrong conclusions. Why shouldn't a keyboard and a mouse be a dedicated surface? I'll mention just a couple of things: shortcuts. For an often used command I can use a dedicated shortcut and apply the command to do something. On a workstation, I always have to go into the menu where the command is listed and use it. Selecting parts of a sample with a mouse by dragging over the wave picture is certainly faster than any solution you may find on any "dedicated" workstation surface. Applying a couple of commands on a couple of samples is also faster with editor software because you can use batch processing. Handling mistakes is by far easier on a wave editor because you can always undo an operation, while on a workstation you have to save a separate edited version and at the end of the job you have to clean up the mess and delete the unwanted sample versions. Working on a 24" screen is certainly easier and faster than dealing with information on a 9" screen. Hence, even renaming a sample is faster and easier to do on a keyboard which you use for years by typing all kind of stuff, especially if you use 10 fingers to type. And at the end, working for hours on a desk, having my arms laid on it and use the keyboard or mouse is certainly convenient than holding my arms for hours in "the air", over a screen and pressing this or that key or part of a screen.
| SpIdErWeB wrote: | | You're assuming a better software for editing can do things better and faster... Good, that's the point! Having large colour touchscreen, computer power and dedicated surface control, the Kronos would be a killer with a better Sample Editor. |
The Kronos already has a touchscreen, computer power and a dedicated surface control. That doesn't automatically equal to a better sample editor. Even if Korg would implement everything from the list what jahrome mentioned, it wouldn't automatically equal to a better sample editor. The Kronos also has a sequencer. Don't even try to convince me that it could be better than Logic, Cubase or ProTools just because of some dedicated interface and because of the touchscreen.
| SpIdErWeB wrote: | Everything you do on a computer could be done on a Kronos, if you don't understand that I can't help you...
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You're completely and absolutely wrong here. I understand everything. You guys should read more carefully what people write in their posts. I have worked for years with samples on dedicated devices. I have that experience. Even now I do some light editing on the workstation, because it's sometimes faster to do it on the workstation instead of moving samples forward and back between a pc and the keyboard.
My point is: you won't see a complete list with all functions for every single process on a workstation. In the same way as you won't see a fully featured sequencer comparable to the software versions for the mac/pc. Sometimes other tools are better, faster and easier for some jobs. That's my point and not my doubt that Kronos would be able to do this or that.
BTW, my offer about a comparison on some basic sample editing on a workstation and dedicated software is still valid. Instead of speculating what's on the other side of the moon, we could simply go there and take a look.
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jahrome
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 378
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| sani wrote: |
... On a workstation, I always have to go into the menu where the command is listed and use it. Selecting parts of a sample with a mouse by dragging over the wave picture is certainly faster than any solution you may find on any "dedicated" workstation surface. |
You are still talking in circles. Your argument is that you have faster and more powerful options when using a computer and software. This is the same lame argument those they forgo standalone workstations all together because they claim they can build a more powerful computer and buy software that exceeds everything we have in a keyboard workstation....and for a cheaper price.
Well...I say to you what I say to those guys....go ahead and use your computer for whatever floats your boat. To date, Korg has not reduce the sampling capabilities of their flagship workstations. I prefer a hardware workstation and will continue to use a hardware workstation. I will continue to lobby for more powerful operating systems with added functions. The Kronos seems to be that product as it does things never before achieved in a hardware workstation. I just don't want Korg to forget about those that like sampling and sample editing on-board.
I guess next I will write a thread about what I need in a sequencer next. You will be more than welcome to tell me that:
A. Computer workstation sequencers are lame (and that you can use your DAW which have more tracks and more powerful editing options)
B. More time should be invested in things you can't do on a computer (with your logic..computers do everything).
Mashing buttons and spinning the jog wheel can be fun (mouse is not fun):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vujBZCt9gZU&feature=related
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Tool box: Kronos 61, Fantom FA06, ASR-10, MPCX, MPC Live, and MPC 4000. |
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SpIdErWeB
Full Member
Joined: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 209
Location: France
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| sani wrote: | | You're completely and absolutely wrong here. I understand everything. You guys should read more carefully what people write in their posts. I have worked for years with samples on dedicated devices. I have that experience. |
You surely have experience of old-schoold sampler and computer soft-sampler, but you surely don't have any experience of evolved sampler editor on a platform such the Kronos because it's simply doesn't exist...
What you're mistaken (like a lot of people) it's the fact to think that a hardware workstation has to be like the old-school keyboard in both power and workflow.
| Quote: | | You make logically wrong conclusions. Why shouldn't a keyboard and a mouse be a dedicated surface? I'll mention just a couple of things: shortcuts. For an often used command I can use a dedicated shortcut and apply the command to do something. |
Ok, so what's the difference between a shortcut on a computer keyboard and a button on a workstation? It's the same, we agree... so there's no reason a computer with shortcuts will be faster and easier than a well designed Sample Editor on a Workstation.
| Quote: | | On a workstation, I always have to go into the menu where the command is listed and use it. |
Again, why are you assuming you will have to go in menu with the command list, etc... There's function buttons, tabs on the touchscreen and so much functions that could be used on a workstation to make the workflow way faster than what we know on ridiculous 2 lines or 240 x 64 pixels non-touch LCD Display.
| Quote: | | Selecting parts of a sample with a mouse by dragging over the wave picture is certainly faster than any solution you may find on any "dedicated" workstation surface. Applying a couple of commands on a couple of samples is also faster with editor software because you can use batch processing. Handling mistakes is by far easier on a wave editor because you can always undo an operation, while on a workstation you have to save a separate edited version and at the end of the job you have to clean up the mess and delete the unwanted sample versions. |
Why are you assuming than we couldn't have undo, batch processing and dragging over the wave picture on a workstation such the Kronos? All this features aren't magical and can (and should) be included... That's the point of this whole thread. Having evolved features to allow one to create and edit sample the same way we can do today on software... And even better on some other way.
| Quote: | | Working on a 24" screen is certainly easier and faster than dealing with information on a 9" screen. |
You don't need 24" to see the waveform... We don't talk about having 20 audio track with waveform on the screen here, but just edit one sample (mono or stereo). I have been working on smaller screen and it works like a charm when the environment is well designed.
| Quote: | | The Kronos already has a touchscreen, computer power and a dedicated surface control. That doesn't automatically equal to a better sample editor. Even if Korg would implement everything from the list what jahrome mentioned, it wouldn't automatically equal to a better sample editor. |
It surely depends on how it would be implemented... that's sure. But if it's well made, it will for sure be superior... why? Because of that:
| Quote: | | The Kronos also has a sequencer. Don't even try to convince me that it could be better than Logic, Cubase or ProTools just because of some dedicated interface and because of the touchscreen. |
It depends what you call better... And that's the point. When we did develop RiFF sequencer for Open Labs keyboards, we did some features so much better, using the touchscreen, that no other sequencer can compete with a keyboard and mouse... Why trying to drag and drop with a mouse when you can just point it with your finger? Of course, there's a LOT of missing today on RiFF, and so it can't compete on some level with Logic or PT... but as a tool for creation and editing... it surely does have great value that makes it better.
Why a lot of people still like better to sequence on MPC or equivalent such Maschine and stuff? It's faster, easier and have a workflow no current DAW provides (and not mention the groove).
| Quote: | | In the same way as you won't see a fully featured sequencer comparable to the software versions for the mac/pc. Sometimes other tools are better, faster and easier for some jobs. |
I agree... that's why the same way we do use MPCs for recording midi sequences, it could be better to sample et edit directly from the keyboard... The same way, I will ever record audio and mix on ProTools and nothing else.
Phil |
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jahrome
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 378
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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Here a few examples of features I spoke of earlier. Each of these workstations capture functions I really like..but there has yet to be a model that captures the best from them all.
1. Using the V-Synth's touch screen to edit a sample: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzFvT-aDuzA
2. Nondestructive chop (slicing) function in the JJ OS for the Akai MPC 2500 inspired by the ASR-10:
http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~mpc1000/os2xl/ndc.htm
Once a sample is chopped, it is automatically mapped across the pads (or keys when using a external controller). However, when you adjust the start/end points of a slice, it doesn't impact the adjacent slices. If you are familiar with the classic ASR-10, it allows you take a single sample and assign it to multiple keys without copying and pasting. You can then independently edit the sample start/end points of each sample without impacting the others. Since all the keys are referencing the same sample, it doesn't utilize any additional memory. Kanye talks about this feature 55 seconds into the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWDr0f2k2kc&feature=related
3. Real-time pitch shift function in the JJ OS for the Akai MPC 2500 using input thru (Insert Effects):
http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~mpc1000/os2xl/rtps25.htm
This function allows you to adjust the pitch of incoming audio in real time without changing the tempo. I salivate thinking how this function could be with Roland's variphrase technology 
4. Sample playhead marker/cursor of the Fantom G (jump to 1 minute 14 seconds):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj-G7cQ9cIs&playnext=1&list=PLC01502627CFC1A32
It's nice to have a visual indicator to let you know which part of the sample you are actually hearing. It makes it a little easier when editing. This video also shows how easy it is to adjustments to editing a chopped sample.
5. More sample editing on the Fantom G. Also showcases realtime pitch shift and time stretching:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o7020bIzU0&feature=related
6. For good measures, I have to add a Korg workstation (M3):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCiP6K1-6-E&feature=related
_________________
Tool box: Kronos 61, Fantom FA06, ASR-10, MPCX, MPC Live, and MPC 4000. |
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jahrome
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 378
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| jahrome wrote: |
4. Sample playhead marker/cursor of the Fantom G (jump to 1 minute 14 seconds):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj-G7cQ9cIs&playnext=1&list=PLC01502627CFC1A32
It's nice to have a visual indicator to let you know which part of the sample you are actually hearing. It makes it a little easier when editing. This video also shows how easy it is to adjustments to editing a chopped sample.
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M3 call this the "Location Bar" in Track Edit Mode.
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Tool box: Kronos 61, Fantom FA06, ASR-10, MPCX, MPC Live, and MPC 4000. |
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jimknopf
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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Jahrome, I see a BIG difference between wishlists and reality.
In reality, I still want to see the workstation that is better suited for sampling jobs than the best computer software. In reality, workstations ar FAR behind software power and functionality. On the Fantom G which you pointed to among others, sample editing is extremely basic and you won't get far with it. Frankly, it's a pain to do much beyond the oneshots and some primitive length editing, which Jem Godfrey demonstrated on it. And even for that primitive length editing it is just ridiculous how slow it is done on a Fantom G (jogwheel! ouch!) compared to some fast mouseclicks on a PC.
Simple as that.
If workstations become better, and if some advanced sampling/sample editing jobs can be done really comfortable on a Kronos screen some day, fine with me. 
Though I still ask myself, what for??
At home I have a computer, everywhere else I have a notebook, so why would I ever need a workstation for sample editing???
It's about the least urgent thing for me to have on a workstation, and I have a dozen of other priorities concerning a Kronos, before that even would come to my mind. |
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Zeroesque
Senior Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 451
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| SpIdErWeB wrote: | That's not right...
First of all, you're assuming a computer can do it faster... Hello? Kronos IS a computer inside.
You're also assuming a keyboard and mouse is faster than dedicated surface? Why every Pro-station do have dedicated controllers then? Also, you forget the touchscreen which is way more efficient than keyboard&mouse. Having worked on touchscreen development, I can guarantee it. That's the reason we can see it everywhere now, from phone to workstation.
You're assuming a better software for editing can do things better and faster... Good, that's the point! Having large colour touchscreen, computer power and dedicated surface control, the Kronos would be a killer with a better Sample Editor. Everything you do on a computer could be done on a Kronos, if you don't understand that I can't help you...
Phil |
A touchscreen is more efficient than a keyboard and a mouse? Okay, you type on any touchscreen you'd like, I'll type on a real keyboard and we'll see who gets more words per minute. Deal?
Then we'll crop photos. Who will have to hit undo and reselect regions more often?
Then we'll play a Doom (or whatever FPS). Wonder who will win? (this is actually an interesting case because there would be no need to "aim" with a touchscreen...but try using the touchscreen for your movements and other actions)
A mouse is accurate to the pixel. Can your finger can do that? Oh, and your finger isn't transparent. How is that some ideal replacement for a mouse?
How do visually impaired people use touchscreens? Do you think Stevie Wonder uses a new Korg or Roland workstation as his main axe?
Also, vertically mounted touchscreens are just about the worst thing I can think of, ergonomically speaking. Could you imagine if you had to hold your arm in mid-air all day to use your computer? That is not a replacement for a keyboard and mouse in mainstream computing.
It may be that touchscreens are more intuitive because of the direct interaction, but to make a blanket statement saying that they are more efficient? C'mon. And any explanation of why we see touchscreens on phones would seem to include such intuitive access for basic interaction and also...marketing. If your argument were true, than we wouldn't have phones that have both touchscreen and keypad, would we? This giant market exists because people have realized that for many computing tasks, touchscreens suck.
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Kronos 61, Kronos2-88, Hammond B3, Baldwin SD-10 |
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jahrome
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 378
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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jimknopf,
I am not talking about Kronos sample editor versus computer sample editing software nor am I talking about Kronos versus DAW/VST plug-ins (I said this several times). You see a big difference between wishlists and reality but can't seem to grasp an even simpler concept (Kronos versus other workstations).
The reality is that every single function on my "wishlist" are "decent sampling/sample editing" tools that can be accomplished on other sampling workstations as I indicated previously:
I have no idea of what Kronos will do out the box. If it has the same sampling tools as previous Korg workstations, it will at a minimum be a serious option when I purchase a workstation this spring. If the programmers at Korg can implement my "wish list", I believe it will be the best option for producers that create sample-based music on standalone workstations...and the only option for me. Because "I" need a workstation that has sample editing...thus the name of the thread.  On the other fronts, the Kronos does everything I need it to do and can't think of any other thing that needs improvements (certainly not dozens). If I do come across some other function that needs improvement...hey, I will just do it on a computer until Korg implements it.
_________________
Tool box: Kronos 61, Fantom FA06, ASR-10, MPCX, MPC Live, and MPC 4000. |
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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| jahrome, why don't you download yourself OASYS manual and see what it could do w.r.t. sample editing? Kronos is most likely largely the same. Perhaps even a bit improved, but we don't know that yet. Still, it'd be worth a shot of checking the user guide(s) for OASYS as baseline info. |
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