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RH3 or "synth action"
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Akos Janca
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimknopf wrote:
A well done half-weighted keybed would be a better compromise for me. But since 61 keys is not what I want on my basic keyboard, I don't have any choice at all anyway, and discussion is futile.


Yes, half-weighted or semi-weighted would also be a good compromise (I liked my Ensoniq ASR-10 for example). However, I don't think Korg will develop their own half-weighted keybed soon.

Jon Lord wrote:
Is it just me but im missing a RH3 midi keyboard controller from korg. a simple and straightforward product with pitchweel/stick, ability to change midi channel and velocity curve and nothing else... i mean nothing. This combined with a kronos 61 sitting on top of it and we have a winner


As an alternative the SV-1 could be used. (I know it's not a dedicated controller and also much more expensive.)

fatih89 wrote:
So you can use RH3 and synth-action keys. ... I would buy the Kronos88 and plug in a MIDI-keyboard with synth-action so I can switch between two keybeds.


Good idea, too. And there are many good choices for a 61-key synth action MIDI-controller.
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does any keyboard company still build their own keybeds? I thought meanwhile it's more or less all from Fatar and some Chinese companies.

That should give you lots of options, unless you got a big number of unused M3 keybeds (bought in high numbers at a decent price) to get rid of in the first place. Laughing
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Jon Lord
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimknopf wrote:
Does any keyboard company still build their own keybeds? I thought meanwhile it's more or less all from Fatar and some Chinese companies.
As far as i know, korg started making their own semi-weighted keybeds with the M3 and now is making the same for kronos, atleast for the higher end products. For lower end i guess they are using fatars?

And about their weighted keys i have no idea but my guess is the whole RH* line is built by korg?

And yamaha makes their own keybeds aswell.
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Jon Lord
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akos Janca wrote:
Jon Lord wrote:
Is it just me but im missing a RH3 midi keyboard controller from korg. a simple and straightforward product with pitchweel/stick, ability to change midi channel and velocity curve and nothing else... i mean nothing. This combined with a kronos 61 sitting on top of it and we have a winner


As an alternative the SV-1 could be used. (I know it's not a dedicated controller and also much more expensive.)
The major problem with the SV-1 is the form so i can't put the kronos on top of it, and when i mean on top of it i mean:

And dont laugh at that weird setup, it was just temporary so i could carry my module with me with ease. But as you can see you can easily put other keyboards on top of the M3 with the module removed.


Looks currently like this:

As you might see i really liked the KKS system.
But im just testing an Elka MK-88 as a 88-piano controller which i could perhaps put a the kronos on top of it and just cover the buttons on it somehow(which is the problem with all 88piano controllers... full of buttons, sliders and stuff. That's why im requesting korg to make a simple one Rolling Eyes )
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alantunucci



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon Lord wrote:
As far as i know, korg started making their own semi-weighted keybeds with the M3 and now is making the same for kronos, atleast for the higher end products.


They call it "semi-weighted", but for me there's nothing "weighted" about it. It is synth action.

Kurzweil PC3 has semi-weighted keys, M3 doesn't.

I think the best would be a Kronos 73 and a controller with synth keys on top.
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McHale
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alantunucci wrote:
They call it "semi-weighted", but for me there's nothing "weighted" about it. It is synth action.


No, there's definitely a difference between Semi-weighted and synth action. My Kohnler & Campbell upright piano's action is almost identical to the M3's semi-weighted action (resistance and speed). And the M3's semi-weighted keys are MORE weighted than the Yamaha semi-weighted keys on my Triton.

Semi-weighted keys feel slightly sluggish compared to synth action. Fully weighted is more sluggish and heavy compared to synth action.
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Scott
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

robinkle wrote:
For me, I don't think playing Weighted keys are too heavy for organ sounds.
Weighted keys are not THAT heavy!

It depends on your playing style. If you play with a lot of typical real organ techniques... like palm-swiping or high speed single-key repetitions... on most weighted actions, these things cannot really be done.
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robinkle
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott wrote:
robinkle wrote:
For me, I don't think playing Weighted keys are too heavy for organ sounds.
Weighted keys are not THAT heavy!

It depends on your playing style. If you play with a lot of typical real organ techniques... like palm-swiping or high speed single-key repetitions... on most weighted actions, these things cannot really be done.

I've seen many doing palm-swiping on piano, so I can't agree with you.
I'm sure there are boundaries to get used to, when playing with weighted keys after playing synth action. Once you got the strength, it won't be a problem. But thats how it is for me. You might not plan to play piano and might not need to get used to weighted keys, that might be a different angle. Smile
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McHale
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a HUGE difference when playing weighted vs. semi-weighted. I play mainly organ and it is impossible for me to do so of my smears and swipes on the RH3. IMPOSSIBLE. Can I do a simple smear, yes. Can I do it a lot without killing my hand, no. It's not simply a matter of strength.
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Scott
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon Lord wrote:
Akos Janca wrote:
Jon Lord wrote:
Is it just me but im missing a RH3 midi keyboard controller from korg. a simple and straightforward product with pitchweel/stick, ability to change midi channel and velocity curve and nothing else... i mean nothing. This combined with a kronos 61 sitting on top of it and we have a winner


As an alternative the SV-1 could be used. (I know it's not a dedicated controller and also much more expensive.)
The major problem with the SV-1 is the form so i can't put the kronos on top of it


How about a Kronos 61 paired with the SP250?

A Kronos 61 and an SP250 combined are cheaper than a Kronos 88!

You would have the RH3 keyboard, so you'd have a full 88 keys and both actions available, so you can play with either piano or organ technique without compromise. Plus for splits and layers, you'd have that many more keys available for assignable zones, as well as the ability to easily play, for example, a right-hand part that plays through whatever number of octaves and "crosses" your left hand part on the other keyboard.

Plus the SP250 looks pretty flat on top so you could probably arrange a stack that would ergonomically work well.

There are some limitations... the 88 doesn't have pitch bend, mod wheel, aftertouch... so that would affect which sounds you want to map to which board. But since all of that is on the 61, I think that is a very workable compromise.

You could do much the same thing with a Yamaha P95 on bottom, which have the advantage of only weighing 20-some pounds (or a Casio PX-3 which is even lighter and adds some more MIDI controller fucntionality including the pitch wheel). They don't have as much stackable surface are as the SP250 seems to have, though. But with the right stand, those would be good solutions too,
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robinkle
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McHale wrote:
There's a HUGE difference when playing weighted vs. semi-weighted. I play mainly organ and it is impossible for me to do so of my smears and swipes on the RH3. IMPOSSIBLE. Can I do a simple smear, yes. Can I do it a lot without killing my hand, no. It's not simply a matter of strength.
The swipe is more technique then strength. Practice makes master. What works for me doesn't need to work for others. That's how it is. Smile
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Scott
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

robinkle wrote:
I've seen many doing palm-swiping on piano, so I can't agree with you.

I'm with McHale on this one. On most weighted actions, it really can't be done. It has nothing to so with developing the strength. You'd have to develop resistance to bleeding. Unless you're only doing it very sporadically. Also, most weighted actions don't return fast-enough to do the kinds of single-note repetitions some organists use.

And again, I am qualifying this, *most* weighted actions. There are some weighted actions that can work surprisingly well for organ. The one that Nord uses in the Stage, for example. But I haven't yet played a weighted action from Korg, Yamaha, or Roland that can effectively be used for serious organ playing.

p.s. -- the weight itself just one factor... I think also most of the weighted 88 actions have relatively sharp key edges that contribute to the problem
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McHale
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's also not even the bleeding factor. The keys themselves aren't capable. Because of their weight and slower response, they just can't do some things. For example, I do a 4 octave smear where I take my hand and smear up 2 and back down 2 fast. Makes kind of a cool grown sound. It can't be done on the RH3.

A piano gliss and an organ smear are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT techniques.
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robinkle
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McHale wrote:
It's also not even the bleeding factor. The keys themselves aren't capable. Because of their weight and slower response, they just can't do some things. For example, I do a 4 octave smear where I take my hand and smear up 2 and back down 2 fast. Makes kind of a cool grown sound. It can't be done on the RH3.

A piano gliss and an organ smear are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT techniques.
Then it's simple. RH3 arent like piano keys.
Because it works fine on a piano. If they make the keys too sharp on the edge, then korg needs to do something. It works fine for me on Fatar weighted keys. Maby I have solid skin. I don't know. Bleeding on a keyboard is new to me.
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Scott
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the youtube clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd_dFDQRXtg from about 1:50 to 3:10 shows a bunch of organ technique that would be unplayable on some weighted actions. It's probably a combination of weight, return time, smoothness of key edges, height of trigger point...
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