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Help with finding or programming pad sound on M50
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mtlkeys



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:35 pm    Post subject: Help with finding or programming pad sound on M50 Reply with quote

I would appreciate any input on this as I'm hopeless in sound design.

I am looking for some basic pad sounds to accompany my band on songs that otherwise don't have too much in the way of keyboard parts.

I find that most of the m50's pads are really atmospheric and moving and don't sit well as subtle accompaniment. I also find that the strings are either way to orchestral (read: shrill and attacky) or slow (the long decay muddies the sound) to be useful in a band context.

I am looking for something that (at least sounds) really basic. The best example that springs to mind immediately would be something like the synth pad at the beginning of Cyndi Lauper's "Time After Time" (You can listen to the first 15 seconds at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PqhOrgk11A).

If there is a factory program along those lines that I haven't found, I'd love to know it. If not, if someone can describe how to program something like that from the existing waveforms, I'd be happy to try.

Thanks!
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billbaker
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there's a Triton factory program called "Futuresynth" that's pretty close to this (Time After Time) sound, but I don't know if it carried forward onto the m-50.

True pad sounds are sonic filler that plug the gaps in a mix, so first off it shouldn't be too loud, or too interesting. I play in a church setting; I can't use a lot of the factory "pad" sounds because there's too much movement (arps), velocity filter sweeps and such. Same problem, no?

I've done a lot of sound design to develop simpler pad sounds for worship (you have to be able to talk over them and they can't distract from the message) - unfortunately none of that is on the M50 so I have nothing I can just give you.

SO here's a quick and dirty tutorial on pads that may help.

1 - Start with strings: Most string patch parameters are already set up for a pad-like sound. You have a perfect non-sweepy, big space, maybe chorused, not over FX'd skeleton to put new meat over. Use that.

2 - Listen up: Go into the oscillator select menu and change to sine wave or a simple synth wave in osc 1 & 2. You are just substituting a new wave from ROM - no big, extensive edits are required. Turn off the volume in OSC 2 and listen just to OSC 1 - it may start to sound like a pipe organ... that's OK - scroll through the synth waveforms and see if there's anything that suits your needs. [Look at existing pad sounds and see what waves they use.] Repeat that for osc 2 - try not to use the same wave form in both. Listen. Save often if you can - you may find 10 pad sounds you like. Have a place to put 'em ready.

3 - Reduce the attack: You want to reduce the perceived attack by increasing the attack time to around 5 to 15; this will let the sound swell into place more gently. Attack times of zero tend to make everything sound like organ. Don't go overboard tho', because you may have to do changes that require some agility in playing - long attack times won't get to full volume quickly enough. Play. Make sure it is moving with you.

4 - Watch your tail: Long fading release times = mud. Make fast chord changes and you'll hear every one of them played over each other. trailing sounds should be 1/2 second or so; fading not cutting off abruptly, so you want some downslope ( \ )but it should be pretty short.

5 - Be gentle: Any changes you make should err of the side of caution, you don't want anything about this sound to stick out. Velocity should just make it louder, not introduce a filter sweep or change the timbre so be very aware of what's controlling those bright sharp edged elements in your sound.

----------------------

Hope this helps.

You may start to enjoy sound design; the more you do the easier it gets. The method described in steps 1 & 2 - substituting waves into a pre-existing program set-up - is a really easy way to get started and works on any synth and almost any sound.



BB
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billbaker

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mtlkeys



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BB,

Thank you for your reply. You hit the nail on the head describing my problem with finding the appropriate sound.

If I replace OSC 1 and OSC 2 with simple waves, will that completely get rid of the string-ish sound? Perhaps you only suggested starting with a string program because the other (non oscillator waveform) settings are suitable for a pad...?

On which page can I edit the attack time? I have noodled around with combis and can navigate the parameters fairly well but I've never ventured into program editing...
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill's advice is very good.

A couple of things to add:

Try twisting the real-time knobs (or use Tone Adjust mode) to see if you come up with something more useful.

For those sounds that sound too motion-ey, then trying turning off one of the oscillators (change from Double mode to Single Mode).

Saw waves make for the most excellent pad material. Use the filter to keep them from being too overbearing. I like to blend saw waves with triangle waves.

You'll find the attack settings on the AMP EG page, and another attack setting on the Filter EG pages. Note, if your program is set to Double mode (two oscillators), you will have two AMP EGs and two Filter EGs.

If you listen closely to the pad sound on Cyndi's song, you can hear it's layered with an organ at low volume. That really helps that basic pad stand out without taking over the mix. Organs can be really subtle and still have loads of presence to fill gaps. Sometimes, you might want to forget the pad and just call up organ patches. Can't go wrong, usually, in my opinion.
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billbaker
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mtlkeys,

Yeah, once you get away from the string wave in ROM it changes completely. You may find synth waves that sound "stringy" in an Analog Strings kind of way, but mostly things will sound more synth than acoustic.

The current pad sounds have a lot of baggage as far as their set-up -- almost all of that movement and edge and brightness is parameter driven, not part of the original sample wave. So by going to strings as a starting point you eliminate most of the distracting elements of the factory pads. The result is the simpler sound you want.

Don't be afraid to mix things up, as far as wave selection goes. Something kind of off-the-wall can be just the thing you're seeking. One of the better organ patches I wrote used kalimba as a substitute for the key click percussion sound.

Once you get the programs sounding like you want them then you can stack 'em up and layer them in combis. More fun.

--------

Attack time is the first parameter in the ADSR envelope (attack-decay-sustain-release) on the AMP page. Visually its the thing that looks like a drawing of a slightly crushed box. Each element has a time and volume setting: So a shorter attack time number means the attack happens more quickly - 0 = immediate on. Typically, the volume is 127 (max). Organ is a zero/max setting - immediate maximum volume.



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mtlkeys



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you both for your detailed replies.

I will try to muddle through it tonight. I know deep down it is important to learn to do it myself instead of being handed a .PCG by another forum reader...
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mtlkeys wrote:
Thank you both for your detailed replies.

I will try to muddle through it tonight. I know deep down it is important to learn to do it myself instead of being handed a .PCG by another forum reader...


There is a high percentage of keyboardists who do not program or even tweak any sounds in their synths. They just play presets or sounds they've bought or downloaded. If programming doesn't interest you, then try checking out these places for free combis and programs you can download:

http://www.karma-lab.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=224

http://www.korgforums.com/support/m50.html

http://korgpatches.com/patches/m50/
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Synthoid
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mtlkeys wrote:
I have noodled around with combis and can navigate the parameters fairly well but I've never ventured into program editing...


You've received some great advice from people, but don't stop there... I'd definitely recommend reading the M50 manual from cover to cover and have it handy when you're editing.

If all you have is a PDF copy, print out the pages that are most important to you--it's helpful to have them in your hand when programming

Sounds Good
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billbaker
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding presets.

I'm all for them as a starting point. I've picked up a bunch of 3rd party sounds here at the forum. And I'm grateful as heck for the leg up that gave me in sound design and playing.

But at best, they're kind of like a borrowed pair of shoes. You find yourself walking around in a sound that's not quite what you were looking for - maybe it pinches a bit, maybe the wrong color or wobbles where you need support. If you have enough of pairs of shoes in a big enough closet you can get really close to the right fit.

But the difference between close and just right is the knowledge you get programming, or tweaking, or adjusting the sounds until your ear is satisfied.

And you gotta know which knob to grab to turn up the "dangerous" and not the "suck".


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mtlkeys



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides, other people's shoes are smelly. Laughing
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mtlkeys



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, after forty minutes of trying last night I got frustrated and gave up. I could not get anything even remotely in the ballpark of what I was trying to achieve.

Anyone able/willing to help with even a starting point to try tweak?
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Synthoid
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HardSync wrote:
If you listen closely to the pad sound on Cyndi's song, you can hear it's layered with an organ at low volume. That really helps that basic pad stand out without taking over the mix.


Did you try that--layering a string sample with an organ sample? Once you find something that's close it's often just a matter of filter, envelope and perhaps subtle EQ settings.

Also, I assume you have listened to all of the M50 presents in appropriate categories, ie: slow synth, fast synth, strings, etc. Something in there should provide an adequate starting point.
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mtlkeys wrote:
So, after forty minutes of trying last night I got frustrated and gave up. I could not get anything even remotely in the ballpark of what I was trying to achieve.

Anyone able/willing to help with even a starting point to try tweak?


I can try, but I can't promise it will be what you want:

Call up program D004 - Ana-2-Real Strings

For OSC1 change the two multisamples to triangle waves: perhaps 692 Triangle MG3 and the other to 693 Triangle MG

For OSC2 change the top multisample to 659 Saw MG3, and change the second multisample to 417 Glass Vox.

It's a very gentle pad. Won't get in the way of anything. Adjust attack to suit.
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mtlkeys



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Synthoid wrote:
HardSync wrote:
If you listen closely to the pad sound on Cyndi's song, you can hear it's layered with an organ at low volume. That really helps that basic pad stand out without taking over the mix.


Did you try that--layering a string sample with an organ sample? Once you find something that's close it's often just a matter of filter, envelope and perhaps subtle EQ settings.

Also, I assume you have listened to all of the M50 presents in appropriate categories, ie: slow synth, fast synth, strings, etc. Something in there should provide an adequate starting point.


Yes to all or your questions.

Best I could do was a combi with a sine wave pad, very quiet mixed strings (they really overwhelm the pad if mixed in significantly), and quiet organ (the CX3 program had the nicest harmonics). While it is a nice pad, it's much more complex than I was hoping for.

The best pads for a real gigging musician, IMHO, are SIMPLE. I'd love it if keyboards didn't come with so many ethereal/atmospheric/spooky soundscapes and came instead with 'boring' but actually practical pads to just hold down a cord and add that pad sweetness.
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Synthoid
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mtlkeys wrote:
Best I could do was a combi with a sine wave pad, very quiet mixed strings (they really overwhelm the pad if mixed in significantly), and quiet organ (the CX3 program had the nicest harmonics). While it is a nice pad, it's much more complex than I was hoping for.

The best pads for a real gigging musician, IMHO, are SIMPLE.


If you're layering programs together in a combi, then sure... you'll end up with something too complex.

Use program mode. Use two waveforms (samples). Try one string (or sawtooth) waveform and one organ (or sine) waveform.

Basic & simple.

Sounds Good
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