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Help with finding or programming pad sound on M50
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mtlkeys



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Synthoid:

Before settling on the combi I did try that, in program mode, as you and Bill had suggested. The result was not pretty.
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My last post may have been missed because I posted it when you were typing one of your replies. Did you try what I suggested using program D004?
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mtlkeys



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HardSync wrote:
My last post may have been missed because I posted it when you were typing one of your replies. Did you try what I suggested using program D004?


Indeed I did miss it, Hardsync.

I will try it out later and let you know about the results either way.

Many thanks!
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Synthoid
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mtlkeys wrote:
Synthoid:

Before settling on the combi I did try that, in program mode, as you and Bill had suggested. The result was not pretty.


May I recommend this... if you are new to the world of synthesis, it would be extremely helpful to Google the topic and do some preliminary reading.

Also, keep this in mind: the keyboard sounds you hear in a professionally recorded songe are often bathed in various effects including, chorus, reverb, compression, etc. Learning how to tastefully use those effects in the M50 will go a long way in bringing you closer to the sound(s) you need.

Very Happy
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mtlkeys



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Synthoid"
May I recommend this... if you are new to the world of synthesis, it would be extremely helpful to Google the topic and do some preliminary reading.
[/quote]

I am not a *complete* newbie to programming, I am just hopeless Embarassed

I understand the concept of ADSR envelopes, filters, LFOs, etc. in theory. My problem is hearing a sound and figuring out which of those techniques are in use and which base waves are used. Also, each synth implements these things differently. The m50 is the first synth I've seen which uses an attack _level_ as well as attack time. Strange.

I have (previously) succesfully programmed something to my liking from scratch on the OP-X softsynth, so there is some hope for me yet... Surprised
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billbaker
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ mtlkeys,

All the programing advice, if I was not clear before, happens at the program level - not combi. You can't get simpler by adding layers.

If the string patch start point is not working for you then try (as suggested in the thread so far) starting from another pad like source - organ, slow synth, air/vocal.

I assure you that it does start working... but its not even close to an instant process. Sorry if I wan't clear about that.

For the sake of having something to compare your efforts to, and to get an idea of what's added by programing, try the wave-sub method starting from an INIT program file. You should be able to copy OSC from an existing program -- identical oscillators should have the same sound, yes? No. Compare the sounds and see where audio changes derive -- filter section and IFX / MFX.

Keep at it.


BB
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Last edited by billbaker on Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mtlkeys



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

billbaker wrote:
@ mtlkeys,

All the programing advice, if I was not clear before, happens at the program level - not combi. You can't get simpler by adding layers.

If the string patch start point is not working for you then try (as suggested in the thread so far) starting from another pad like source - organ, slow synth, air/vocal.

I assure you that it does start working... but its not even close to an instant an instant process. Sorry if I wan't clear about that.

For the sake of having something to compare your efforts to, and to get an idea of what's added by programing, try the wave-sub method starting from an INIT program file. You should be able to copy OSC from an existing program -- identical oscillators should have the same sound, yes? No. Compare the sounds and see where audio changes derive -- filter section and IFX / MFX.

Keep at it.


BB


BB,

I will certainly keep at it and try your suggestion of starting a PROGRAM from init mode and copying individual oscillators. I realize that this is not an easy endeavor. There are so many things that I want to do musically that it's easy to frustrate without some sort of quick results....
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mtlkeys wrote:

I understand the concept of ADSR envelopes, filters, LFOs, etc. in theory. My problem is hearing a sound and figuring out which of those techniques are in use and which base waves are used.


All of that stuff comes with time and practice. I've had my M3 for 16 months and I'm still learning how to do stuff on it, and I've been programming synths for a long, long time. Anyway...

This link is a very basic table explaining the simpler concepts about what does what in a synth. It's meant for analog synths with a small selection of waveforms, but the basics still apply. This is really just an overview.

Also, synthguy spent ages explaining the basics of programming the M3, which will apply equally to the M50 for the most part. It's long. OK, it's really, really, really long and he tends towards verbosity. But bookmark it and read a little at a time.
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mtlkeys



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HardSync wrote:


Also, synthguy spent ages explaining the basics of programming the M3[/url], which will apply equally to the M50 for the most part. It's long. OK, it's really, really, really long and he tends towards verbosity. .


Yowza!

Will give it a read, though.
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mtlkeys wrote:
I will try it out later and let you know about the results either way.


How are you getting on mtlkeys? Any joy? Still frustrated?
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mtlkeys



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HardSync wrote:

How are you getting on mtlkeys? Any joy? Still frustrated?


As I am always annoyed when an OP disappears after a long post with no update or resolution, here is my update. Sorry it took so long to get back to the forum.

Hardsync, I tried your pad as you described. Perhaps I didn't follow instructions, but I found it overall to sound like the clarinet patches on old cheap casio keyboards - not the nice subtle ambiance I was looking for, and I also found that there was a very unpleasant (no offense intended) effect - a phasing-type thing - especially apparent when one note was held and sustained.

So, afterwards, I searched through the m50's programs again and found one to be in the vicinity of what I was looking for (unfortunately I have forgotten which program it was) but a little too percussive on the attack. When I looked into it, the sound was made of two oscillators - a harp pluck and analog strings. I disabled the harp pluck and, voila, I had something acceptably close to what I was imagining in my mind. This latter pad has, to my ears, a 'wobbling' sound. I looked into the parameters to see what could cause this, but for the life of me couldn't figure out what it was. I kind of like the wobble, though - adds character to the sound.

I created a little mp3 with examples - the first part representing Hardsync's pad, then one sustained note with the same pad to demonstrate that phasing effect, then 'my' modified pad, then my pad sustaining a chord to demonstrate the 'wobble'.

The mp3 is at:
http://www.freefilehosting.net/examples_1

Any thoughts?
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like your pad better -- the filter is turned down, which is why it's more subtle than the first example. Not sure what is causing that wobble you're hearing... maybe a chorus or some other effect? Or it could be a LFO gently modulating the amp, filter, or even the osc pitch. But it does add a little motion, which is usually desirable and it sounds pretty close to the pad example in the first post.
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mtlkeys



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HardSync wrote:
I like your pad better -- the filter is turned down, which is why it's more subtle than the first example. Not sure what is causing that wobble you're hearing... maybe a chorus or some other effect? Or it could be a LFO gently modulating the amp, filter, or even the osc pitch. But it does add a little motion, which is usually desirable and it sounds pretty close to the pad example in the first post.


Thanks for you input.

I don't think it's an LFO modulating oscillator pitch, as it is not rhythmic at all. I tired to look at the LFO routing but couldn't figure out what it is modding to create that motion.

Cheers for all of your help and interest!
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keeverw
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Joined: 03 May 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

billbaker wrote:
I think there's a Triton factory program called "Futuresynth" that's pretty close to this (Time After Time) sound, but I don't know if it carried forward onto the m-50.

True pad sounds are sonic filler that plug the gaps in a mix, so first off it shouldn't be too loud, or too interesting. I play in a church setting; I can't use a lot of the factory "pad" sounds because there's too much movement (arps), velocity filter sweeps and such. Same problem, no?

I've done a lot of sound design to develop simpler pad sounds for worship (you have to be able to talk over them and they can't distract from the message) - unfortunately none of that is on the M50 so I have nothing I can just give you.

SO here's a quick and dirty tutorial on pads that may help.

1 - Start with strings: Most string patch parameters are already set up for a pad-like sound. You have a perfect non-sweepy, big space, maybe chorused, not over FX'd skeleton to put new meat over. Use that.

2 - Listen up: Go into the oscillator select menu and change to sine wave or a simple synth wave in osc 1 & 2. You are just substituting a new wave from ROM - no big, extensive edits are required. Turn off the volume in OSC 2 and listen just to OSC 1 - it may start to sound like a pipe organ... that's OK - scroll through the synth waveforms and see if there's anything that suits your needs. [Look at existing pad sounds and see what waves they use.] Repeat that for osc 2 - try not to use the same wave form in both. Listen. Save often if you can - you may find 10 pad sounds you like. Have a place to put 'em ready.

3 - Reduce the attack: You want to reduce the perceived attack by increasing the attack time to around 5 to 15; this will let the sound swell into place more gently. Attack times of zero tend to make everything sound like organ. Don't go overboard tho', because you may have to do changes that require some agility in playing - long attack times won't get to full volume quickly enough. Play. Make sure it is moving with you.

4 - Watch your tail: Long fading release times = mud. Make fast chord changes and you'll hear every one of them played over each other. trailing sounds should be 1/2 second or so; fading not cutting off abruptly, so you want some downslope ( \ )but it should be pretty short.

5 - Be gentle: Any changes you make should err of the side of caution, you don't want anything about this sound to stick out. Velocity should just make it louder, not introduce a filter sweep or change the timbre so be very aware of what's controlling those bright sharp edged elements in your sound.

----------------------

Hope this helps.

You may start to enjoy sound design; the more you do the easier it gets. The method described in steps 1 & 2 - substituting waves into a pre-existing program set-up - is a really easy way to get started and works on any synth and almost any sound.



BB



Just wanted to bump this, and say thanks for this post.
It is really helpful to me.
I also play in a worship band, and I am doing this on an M3 but still completely the same method, and after OSC swapping for about 30 minutes I am already blown away by the really smooth pad sounds I am coming up with.
Way better than anything in the factory presets, at least better for what I need anyway.


Thanks again!
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