Korg Forums

[stratquebec]

[worth]

How to create a style ?

Well there are a number of methods you can use . A friend of mine makes what he calls " frankenstyles ". Horrible name but very apt !!

He copies bits from one style into another . So for example if you are not great at drum programming ,just copy a drum track that from a style that you have listened to on the keyboard that is closest to what you want into your new user style . You can do the same for your bass track , guitar tracks horns etc .

Of course you can also substitute the sound and effects on existing styles so to make simple but effective changes . For example ,change the fingered bass track to an acoustic upright or the rhythm guitar to a nylon string etc.

But the real fun is in creating entire styles from scratch !! If your timing and ears are good you can create a completely original style from scratch . It's trial and error sometimes but watch this clip and you will get the basic idea .

http://youtu.be/qKPaMVjJqqQ

80 percent of the styles I use have either been heavily modified or made completely from scratch . Each style has multiple intro and endings and fills and style variation 1-4 . Style variations simply help in a performance to build up the "busyness" or " intensity " of a song from fairly simple to potentially fully orchestrated balls out arrangements ! Just like a real backing band would if the song you were playing required more fullness . The great thing about the korg is that each style variation is composed of up to six chord variations (CVs) per track per style variation .

Which means for example I could program up to 6 subtlely different bass lines or drum patterns in 6 variations of the chord C (just for example ) just on the first style variation !! . In the example above Bert built a style on just one chord variation !! So if I play straight C major chord , the style will play the bass line you programmed in C major like Bert . Bert could have gone further and programmed a subtly different bass line in Cmin . If he then played a C minor chord , the arranger will play the subtly different bass line programmed in Cmin , Cdim, C7 C6 etc so you can create very detailed but smoothly transitioning styles . But like anything that requires original effort , it takes some practise .

What I do is examine an existing style and reverse engineer it . This is great as if I wanted to create my own jazz or funk style , I just find one I liked on the arranger and see what the original programmer did for example :

1. How many CVs did the programmer actually use in the style ? Most don't use more than two per style variation.
2. What CVs did he actually use ? C Cmin6 Cdim ?
3. What effects were used ?
4. What's sounds were used on which parts ?


But don't misunderstand !! It is not really all that hard to do . Just experiment .

In the YouTube example ,Bert programmed just one style part in C using just one Cv but the arranger was still able to follow all his chord changes in real time just from the tracks programmed in C . And it sounded great . The CVs help break up the monotony of say a repeated bass line just played in a different chord/key .

This is just one of the other amazing things about arranger keyboards . It can take the work out of composing/creating music or allow you to be as involved in the music as your skills will allow you !


But certainly less effort than trying to program karma !!!

[Bachus]

I like the statement on motifator...

Arrangers are in general for people that want to play with the content, where workstations are best suited for people that want to create their own content..

In the end thats a strange thing, why wouldnt you give the same tools an arranger has to those pros and allow them to create content for it themselves?

I have allways said that i would love to see a workstation with all the extended edditing that also supports arranger styles... Combine arranger styles with ableton live clip launching, karma, and arps(pads) Allow to use both midi and audio.. With a pregrogrqmmed chord sequence or live played chords and you have the most creative powerhouse in the world

[nitecrawler]

[Bald Eagle]

[stratquebec]

Yeah I will buy a Kronos one day, but for now, in my situation, it is clear that an arranger will help me to get my songs done faster.

@worth
Thanks for the details. You are again so helpful.
One thing I'm currious about is this: the links you give in this thread's posts concern people working with a Yamaha PSR S950. So for sure my next question to you is why do you use a Korg in place of a Yamaha?

I don't want to start a debate so posters, please, let worth explain his points.

Of course, anyones inputs is appreciated.

Thanks all!

[worth]

That's a very good question. The bottom line is that in terms of Sound the Yamaha is the better keyboard. In almost every category it sounds better than the korg and that's significant to me . But even more so was a fully functional built in sequencer and onboard sound editing features and inbuilt speakers. My first arranger was the technics kn1000 and then Yamaha psr 8000 . If Yamaha had developed their arranger keyboards to have a sophisticated inbuilt sequencer rather than the very basic playback system they have to this day now, I would continue to own a Yamaha keyboard. I knew that I needed the instant access playability of an arranger keyboard with a full accompaniment or stripped down to just drums and bass but I also needed the sophisticated functions of the sequencer and workstation in terms of sound editing capabilities and sampling.

Then I stumbled across the Korg PA 1X which is the arranger that I currently own and will probably be the last arranger I will ever own . Once I had played that machine and started to experiment with the sequencer and sampler and inbuilt editing features ,there was no going back for me. I have owned it 10 years and still learning its features .

I was one of the originators who developed the " Korg Arranger Secrets " dvd on the old Korg pa1x forum .

But back to your question .

Sadly Yamaha have not developed their arrangers into the hybrid workstation that korg has ,otherwise I would own one again . Especially as the tyros 4 price has fallen so sharply . But you can't use the Yamaha as a true workstation unless you link it to a computer and that just does not work for me. I want to be able to create and record and edit on the instrument I play on . And work with computers all day in my professional life and so the last thing I want to do when I get back home is the switch on the computer to make music. I also want to be able to do that when the inspiration hits on me and not after my laptop has booted up and I have sorted out all the required connections and software .

The example on you tube for arranger keyboards that have an English presentation are in abundance for Yamaha arrangers and minimal for Korg arrangers . So I quickly pulled some examples from YouTube thatI knew would help you. I have my own theory as to why Korg do not provide detailed tutorials on how to use their arranger keyboards in terms of the workstation capabilities and synthesiser/sampling abilities. They don't want to cannibalise their workstation market !

I would bet that the vast majority Who are now looking to upgrade to the latest arranger never got under the hood of their existing arranger or the one previous to that or the one previous to that.
That means they never worked with the arrangers inbuilt fully featured sequence, never worked with the arrangers inbuilt sound editing and synthesiser features, and never used the sampler. The power of the korg arranger is vast and its potential is truly remarkable if you do your homework.

If korg were to produce an advanced users DVD to show how the instrument could be used in a musical way ,it would kill their arranger sales overnight as less owners would upgrade.

Here is a great demo of the korg pa300 by Luke Edwards . As a song writer this YouTube clip should whet your whistle !! Watch clips one and two http://youtu.be/CKSBdR_UiJE
http://youtu.be/jSJkMSzt_pw

[Bachus]

[stratquebec]

@worth

Ok I see your points and share your opinion about how a good sequencer is important to do a bunch if not all the work on the keyboard without the need to use my computer.

The P300 is great but looking at a couple of videos, I think that I'm gonna invest in a P600 pr even P900.

The only thing thar bother me a bit is their 61 keys keyboard. 76 would be perfect. But I have a 88 notes midi controller so it could be hooked up to a P600 or P900 without any problems I presume.

Ever found 61 key a limitation for you?

[worth]

61 keys is not a limitation but if you have an 88 key controller you won't have any problem at all having it midi'd to the pa600 or 900

[Bald Eagle]

Let's say you have a Kronos and PaX4. How easy/difficult would it be to have the PA playing the styles but record the MIDI into the Kronos sequencer? Can the tone generator on the PA be turned off while doing this by turning local control off. So basically using the PA for arranger functions and the Kronos for the sounds.

Also would DNC performance data be sent over MIDI?

[stratquebec]

[worth]

@baldeagle

I am sure that technically it is possible to midi the korg pa to A korg kronos and use the kronos as the sound source for the styles. But I'm not certain that it would be worth the effort as I'm not sure how either the kronos or the arranger would save the settings each time you switched off either instrument. And I'm not sure what the work load will be in trying to save different sounds from the kronos and balance the volumes ,eq , effects etc to each accompaniment style. For example there are over 500 styles on the Korg PA 3X I think ,which is a lot of work if you wish to select the right sound , balance etc for each style part and save that set up in some way.

And remember that each style has been programmed specifically with the original arranger sound set in mind. Therefore be slaps, strums , guitar body knocks , drum flam ,string plucks ,slides , fret buzzes et cetera which all feature heavily in the programed styles may not be the same in the kronos . In fact because of the particular articulation a and velocity sensitivity of the original soundest ,You may even find that although the kronos has the "better sunset" , the styles will sound more authentic using the on-board arranger sounds. So you may lose more than you might gain by pairing the two together .

Perhaps someone with a greater technical knowledge could chime in here?

[Dikikeys]

I have a somewhat different take on the OP's post than discussed here, so far...

The thing is, if you think a Kronos is good, try out some of the amazing VSTi's now available. From synth emulation to full orchestras with articulation possibilities that make DNC seem kiddie-class in comparison, to drum kit emulations with round robin triggering and room and close mikes to mix to taste, to grand piano emulations that can fool the closest listener... And on, and on, and on!

When it comes to using a DAW for final song production, IMHO you don't really need a WS any longer. Almost everything they do, unless you plan to go out and gig it all live, is bettered by software. Add to that that computers with enough horsepower to run this stuff are now affordable, and audio interfaces with latencies down to 1-2ms are now being made (which equals or exceeds most hardware keyboards).

So, for song production duties, the WS is almost dead.

But...

For quick scratchpad song WRITING, there is still no faster tool than the arranger. As long as an existing style gets you fairly close to the groove and style you want, the opportunities to play quickly with song construction, chord changes and overall feel outstrip ANY current software solution. Although there are a few software arrangers, they still lack the integration and ease of use of the real deal.

So...

For the OP's stated use, if faced with the choice between a TOTL WS and an arranger (and you don't even need it to be TOTL for it to be effective - although the sounds and features may be better in the TOTL, the main thing is the styles, and there is little difference between the arranger engines of TOTL and BOTL), I'd go with the arranger, then concentrate on a good collection of VSTi's to realize a finalized version of the song.

It is pretty easy to 'perform' a song on an arranger from top to bottom, save it as an SMF, import to the DAW, and then start either replacing the arranger's Parts with VSTi's or start to hand play your own parts in when you want something more unique. It is this sheer SPEED of creating rough demos that makes the arranger the tool of choice. No software currently makes this so easy, whereas there is much in the VSTi world that considerably betters the WS in almost every aspect...

[karmathanever]

+1
Yes - great post Diki
Agree, an arranger is a great "ideas" tool for composing and the current technology offers some great sounds too (dare I say it - even Tyros!!! )
And whilst on that subject, if all I was wanting to do was "write/compose" I would be torn between T5 & PA3X (perhaps BK9 too) - there - I admitted it - now I'll have to delete this post so that no-one can refer to it.

I really need to change my habits a little and think about the DAW/VSTis more as I have some song creation projects to do.
Most of what I do is in a "live" situation so I rarely even consider taking PC/laptop etc on gigs, hence I have done very little with software sequencers etc…
Most of the sequencing I have done has been on board the keyboard (and on the fabulous old Yamaha QY700) - been pretty happy with that but of course understand the limitations.

I should look into this as, for example, I have yet to find drum sounds that a remotely acceptable from a keyboard - I'm pretty certain there'll be some excellent drum VSTis.

I'll be nagging for help with this later this year. Am considering Logic Pro X.

Pete
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PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
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