Moving from DAW to Workstation: Presales Questions (M3 v XF)

[kimu]

well, i would also consider the OpenLab Neko/Miko workstation... now mr. Key has developed Karma Software also for OpenLab platform.

http://openlabs.com/

then, before buying the M3 (i was coming from a Trinity) i have had long testing in my local dealer of M3, Motif XS and Fantom G and have i to say that the M3 is the more user friendly of the three regarding programming and live use (even if i admit i hate programming korg workstation... the best programming GUI i have ever seen on a high-budget synth is the Roland V-synth one)

Karma is simply fantastic as well as the drum track, much more than motif riffs / phrase

as sounds, well motif is better on acoustic instrument as brass or winds, while korg is good in synth, pad, efx and strings. for piano and EP M3 offers dedicated free Expansions. to me they seems good but i do not use such sounds so my opinion here could be wrong.

[Synthoid]

1. I had about 3 days a EXB-Radias inside, from a friend... aand nothing was changed. to be onest, the sounds are just like the M3synths (Not only leads): muffy fluffy puffy....
Even thru compressor the sound didn't have the attack I wanted.
But is not that I didn't like... it the fact that the M3 doesn't have sounds that you could say "yes, I knew that program/patch , sound/tone , it cames from M3 Korg" !
The sounds are just BORING and with nothing ORIGINAL.

Have to disagree with you here cminor! I have yet to find a boring sound - okay, I might never use some of them, but there's nothing boring!

I disagree as well! The Radias is amazing... it's a great companion to the M3. And judging it after only three days isn't giving it or you a chance to explore individual sounds and programming features.

[Jive Talking Robot]

cello, apex, shakil, gjvti, kimu, cminor, Synthoid, _joe_ - thank you all for commenting and clearing up some of my questions! It is most appreciated.

I watched nearly every M3/M50 video on the Korg USA You Tube page and over @ Kay-Labs last night (the wife was watching "Housewifes" and the baby was asleep, so it was my time!). I also spent time with the Kay Wiki and the various M3 manuals.

I finally "get" the combi mode, and how it relates to the sequencer. It's actually pretty cool. It may sound funny to some, but, being (mostly) a soft synth guy, I have never worked much in the Combi world (as it relates to Korg). Even when I used an XS, most of the time it was spent programming patches and/or controlling it multitimbrally via Cubase.

And, having never seen the M3 in person, I realize now that it is brushed aluminum after watching the Kay videos... very nice! Odd how it comes off as white plastic in pictures, but I appreciate the design esthetic.

I also have to say that KARMA is just too cool for words. I think if I went with the M3 I would pick up that software and really deep dive. The Berlin School guys from the 70s would have flipped their lids for something like this.

There is so much Korg did right with this workstation (Radias Expansion, KARMA, Chord Memory, Trigger Pads, Touch Pad w/ control, LOADS of I/O, Piano Roll Seq) that I am willing to overlook some of things I don't find that great (limited sample memory, how it handles importing combis, stereo as x2 mono samples, weak(er) acoustic patches).

What I find odd is that I never got a sense that the M3 had a lot of "buzz." "Buzz" does not influence me in any way when it comes to buying a synth, but it does astound me: at the price point, this workstation offers a ton. Maybe the world has just moved away from workstation synths, but then again Yamaha seems to do pretty well hyping the Motif line (and it should be hyped... the XS is a pretty sweet board).

Anyway, I truly appreciate all of your help in this thread. If I can think of any other questions after I absorb the manual and the WIKI, I will hit you up. And, of course, I love reading everyone's thoughts in general so continue to post.

I am simply waiting for the XF to be released at this point. Then I will do a dry run on both boards with my AKGs in tow (I would love to A/B them). But I am pretty impressed at the bang for the buck factor you get w/ Korg.

Thanks!

[Jive Talking Robot]

1) Quick question after reading the manual. On Page 83 under the Sequencer > MIDI Recording > Track Settings section of the manual it states:

"You can copy various settings from Programs or Combinations, including effects, KARMA settings, Tone Adjust, and so on."

I know that the combi is copied over to the sequencer 100% complete, but surely there must be some issues w/ copying over several programs, as each program may have its own multi-effects chain? In other words: I know you could copy over one program w/ all of its effects settings in place, but what about several different programs? I assume they would all have their own, unique effects settings and that they would be sacrificed for the sake of the sequence?

2) For Radias EXB owners - I looked but couldn't find a patch list... does it include an virtual analog drum kit?

3) Finally, an Audio Input question... after reading the manual, I want to make sure I understand this... can you can monitor incoming audio live while in sequencer playback mode? It seems as if you could treat the M3 as a "mixer" by running the analog/digital out of another synth directly in to the M3 while the M3 is playing a song (and/or sequencing the external synth). I was thinking of having my Revolution R2 (an Acid Bass synth) plugged in to the M3 to have the M3 sequence/monitor/sample it on the fly (this setup works nicely with the MachineDrum).

Thanks in advance for helping clear this up!

[apex]

1) Quick question after reading the manual. On Page 83 under the Sequencer > MIDI Recording > Track Settings section of the manual it states:

"You can copy various settings from Programs or Combinations, including effects, KARMA settings, Tone Adjust, and so on."

I know that the combi is copied over to the sequencer 100% complete, but surely there must be some issues w/ copying over several programs, as each program may have its own multi-effects chain? In other words: I know you could copy over one program w/ all of its effects settings in place, but what about several different programs? I assume they would all have their own, unique effects settings and that they would be sacrificed for the sake of the sequence?

2) For Radias EXB owners - I looked but couldn't find a patch list... does it include an virtual analog drum kit?

3) Finally, an Audio Input question... after reading the manual, I want to make sure I understand this... can you can monitor incoming audio live while in sequencer playback mode? It seems as if you could treat the M3 as a "mixer" by running the analog/digital out of another synth directly in to the M3 while the M3 is playing a song (and/or sequencing the external synth). I was thinking of having my Revolution R2 (an Acid Bass synth) plugged in to the M3 to have the M3 sequence/monitor/sample it on the fly (this setup works nicely with the MachineDrum).

Thanks in advance for helping clear this up!

I'll address your first question. You just found one major downfall of the m3 (In my opinion) And this downfall goes all the way back to the days of (at least) the Triton. It's hard (almost impossible) to make a full sequence will all the sounds sounding the same as they did in program mode. You have to get creative here my friend. You've got to prioritize. Look at the programs that you want to use and compare how the effects are used and routed... then try to emulate it the best way you can. It's really not too bad, but it can be limiting.

Keep digging... this stuff is important to find out on the front end. I sure wish I had the.... mind to read straight through a user manual. I think it would be easier if I had a hard copy. But since, I'm looking at it in PDF form on my computer, it's a little less fun. (can't take it to the toilet!!!!)

[gjvti]

1) ... I assume they would all have their own, unique effects settings and that they would be sacrificed for the sake of the sequence?

2) For Radias EXB owners - I looked but couldn't find a patch list... does it include an virtual analog drum kit?

3) ... I was thinking of having my Revolution R2 (an Acid Bass synth) plugged in to the M3 to have the M3 sequence/monitor/sample it on the fly (this setup works nicely with the MachineDrum).

Thanks in advance for helping clear this up!

1) That's right - you have to chose a single program on which your performance will be based and adjust others, but in my opinion M3 effects and routing system allows you really do quite a lot if you cleverly consider your master effects and insert routing.

2) Exb radias don't have drums (unlike Radias rack), but this obviously doesn't mean that you can't achieve some analogue snare or kick by tuning your Exb patch - this just takes whole program.

3) you can absolutely mix the incoming signal with your M3 performance and record it to RAM or USB. More over you can apply M3 effects to your input. You can use M3 mixer control surface to mix/mute incoming signal or performance signals. This affects the signal being recorded and everything what has been recorded is automatically sent to L/R (main out) you just can't switch off monitoring of your recorded signal.

[X-Trade]

IMO it is always best to approach effects in a combi or sequence from scratch. It is not really a technicality of the workstation as much as a natural part of mixing. Aside from a few effects which are integral to a patches sound, a lot of the more subtle effects can be dropped. Or things like chorus, phaser, flanger, delay, can be used for multiple programs instead of giving each ts own chorus or delay, which would just make a mess of the mix anyway.
The main improvement over the Triton series here is the per-timbre EQ, and the total FX slot (great for master limiting, compression, or EQ), which help with the mixing process incredibly.

Also some effects can be replaced by a dual-FX chain which takes up one slot.



As for the Radias drum kits... The Rack/Keyboard version does have them, As well as its own total of nine FX slots. It doesn't really integrate with the M3 very well. Just as any other module really.
If you want the tight integration, go for the EXB, but you'll loose the drums, and you'll have to share with the M3's effects. I absolutely recommend getting the rack, or both.
Radias is more than just an 'analog' synth, that isn't even half of it. It covers all synthetic timbres, going into the realms of digital synthesis forms like FM, waveshaping, and (potentially) physical modelling.

You could also develop your individual 'analog' drum sounds on the EXB, and then resample them to make an EDS drum kit out of them on the M3.

[kanthos]

I'll address your first question. You just found one major downfall of the m3 (In my opinion) And this downfall goes all the way back to the days of (at least) the Triton. It's hard (almost impossible) to make a full sequence will all the sounds sounding the same as they did in program mode. You have to get creative here my friend. You've got to prioritize. Look at the programs that you want to use and compare how the effects are used and routed... then try to emulate it the best way you can. It's really not too bad, but it can be limiting.

To be clear, other synths don't do things any better. The Motif line lets you activate the insert effect on some number of patches in a performance; you can't pick and choose. Korg, on the other hand, lets you do something like layer four different synth sounds together to make a thick synth lead and then apply the same three insert effects to all of those timbres in a combi or tracks in a sequencer. On the Motif, on the other hand (not sure if this got changed in the XS or XF, so you might want to look into it, but certainly the original Motif was this way), you can choose a number of parts (but not all if you're in the sequencer mode and have 16 parts) to have their insert effect turned on. The bonus is that the programs for which this is done sound the same in a performance as they do on their own, but the downside is that you're still always limited to one insert effect per program.

[kimu]

actually i use the M3 as stand-alone studio-recording machine mainly to do something like pre-production of my songs and quick demos of new songs for my band. even if i have some song done completely on the m3 and they sound good

to me this is absolutely efficient and gives me the way to build up my song and ideas w/o having to turn on pc, mixer and so on....

then when i would like to do something more complex, with more FX, automation etc etc i rec each track from M3 sequencer to my daw.

[apex]

I'll address your first question. You just found one major downfall of the m3 (In my opinion) And this downfall goes all the way back to the days of (at least) the Triton. It's hard (almost impossible) to make a full sequence will all the sounds sounding the same as they did in program mode. You have to get creative here my friend. You've got to prioritize. Look at the programs that you want to use and compare how the effects are used and routed... then try to emulate it the best way you can. It's really not too bad, but it can be limiting.

To be clear, other synths don't do things any better. The Motif line lets you activate the insert effect on some number of patches in a performance; you can't pick and choose. Korg, on the other hand, lets you do something like layer four different synth sounds together to make a thick synth lead and then apply the same three insert effects to all of those timbres in a combi or tracks in a sequencer. On the Motif, on the other hand (not sure if this got changed in the XS or XF, so you might want to look into it, but certainly the original Motif was this way), you can choose a number of parts (but not all if you're in the sequencer mode and have 16 parts) to have their insert effect turned on. The bonus is that the programs for which this is done sound the same in a performance as they do on their own, but the downside is that you're still always limited to one insert effect per program.

@ kanthos

On the motif XS rack all programs (voices) sound the exact same in multi/performance mode (which is the same as sequence mode) as they do in voice mode. All effects are applied. I'm not sure how many inserts you get. But all settings are automatically applied from the voice (single/program) mode.

[Synthoid]

actually i use the M3 as stand-alone studio-recording machine mainly to do something like pre-production of my songs and quick demos of new songs for my band. even if i have some song done completely on the m3 and they sound good

Yes, I made a whole CD--recording my tunes with the M3--with just some basic mastering on the PC.

[Jive Talking Robot]

^^^That is exactly my plan. My Cubase/NI/Arturia soft synths aren’t going anywhere, but I am looking forward to a new, more compact and immediate workflow as an alternative to my DAW.

gjvti, X-Trade, apex, kanthos, kimu, Synthoid - thank you all for replying since my last post. Tremendously useful information!

Re: using programs in sequencer mode: I assumed this was a limitation, but, as others have pointed out, this is hardly different than any other workstation. Combis seem to be a great starting point for quick work by dumping them in to a sequencer, but using the sequencer and understanding how the effects work will also be rewarding. If I fall in love with the sound of a particular program, I can import it and build the track around it, being clever with how I allocate and apply my effects resources when I add other programs. All in all, not that big of a deal.

re: using the M3 ins as a mixer/monitor for other gear: very cool! I thought you could use it in that fashion, but I didn't want to get my hopes up. Lots of uses w/ this I think.

[Shakil]

1) Quick question after reading the manual. On Page 83 under the Sequencer > MIDI Recording > Track Settings section of the manual it states:

"You can copy various settings from Programs or Combinations, including effects, KARMA settings, Tone Adjust, and so on."

I know that the combi is copied over to the sequencer 100% complete, but surely there must be some issues w/ copying over several programs, as each program may have its own multi-effects chain? In other words: I know you could copy over one program w/ all of its effects settings in place, but what about several different programs? I assume they would all have their own, unique effects settings and that they would be sacrificed for the sake of the sequence?

2) For Radias EXB owners - I looked but couldn't find a patch list... does it include an virtual analog drum kit?

3) Finally, an Audio Input question... after reading the manual, I want to make sure I understand this... can you can monitor incoming audio live while in sequencer playback mode? It seems as if you could treat the M3 as a "mixer" by running the analog/digital out of another synth directly in to the M3 while the M3 is playing a song (and/or sequencing the external synth). I was thinking of having my Revolution R2 (an Acid Bass synth) plugged in to the M3 to have the M3 sequence/monitor/sample it on the fly (this setup works nicely with the MachineDrum).

Thanks in advance for helping clear this up!

I'll address your first question. You just found one major downfall of the m3 (In my opinion) And this downfall goes all the way back to the days of (at least) the Triton. It's hard (almost impossible) to make a full sequence will all the sounds sounding the same as they did in program mode. You have to get creative here my friend. You've got to prioritize. Look at the programs that you want to use and compare how the effects are used and routed... then try to emulate it the best way you can. It's really not too bad, but it can be limiting.

It's not that bad as you say it Apex. All workstations have this downfall but M3 has the most flexible Effects Routing system among all (not counting Kurzweil PC3 and OASYS).

What other workstation lets you have 3 band EQ on each of 16 parts and allows you to put 5 stereo effects in series with feed in from any point in the series. You have 5 IFXs, 2 MFX, 1 Master Effect. Each of these processors can be any of the 100 or so effects algorithms. You get to save your settings as presets. You can copy effects from one program to other, one combi to other, on song to other and from programs and combis. You can automate effects settings by insert effects changes in sequencer easily. You can route multiple parts to same IFX. The list goes on...

Both Yamaha Motif XS and Fantom-G effects routings are flawed, with Fantom-G being the worst. The main flaw is that the effects settings are tied to programs/patches, instead of the song or mixing when working on a song.

Fantom-G has 16 PFX (patch effects), but no EQ per part. So most of the time you will end up using the PFX as EQ... so there goes your effect. Then there are 2 MFXs, 1 Reverb, 1 Chorus, and 1 Master Compressor. You can't copy effects around, you can't save presets, you can't route multiple parts to same PFX. The effects are tied with patches, not song. So you can't try different sounds for same track without losing your effects tweaks. It's the worst effects system out there.

Yamaha Motif XS is a little better than Fantom-G, since you get individual EQ for each track. You have 16 IFXs with 2 for 8 parts. But it has the same flaw, you can't route in series more than 2, you can send multiple tracks to same IFX, you can't copy settings from one to other, you can't save your ... everytime you want to audition a different sound for same track you loose your effects tweak.....


Jive Talking Robot: Regarding your quesiton #3, yes you can have live audio input from any source (analog or digital) while the sequencer is playing back or recording. You can also process it through RADIAS or the effects system.

[apex]

1) Quick question after reading the manual. On Page 83 under the Sequencer > MIDI Recording > Track Settings section of the manual it states:
I know that the combi is copied over to the sequencer 100% complete, but surely there must be some issues w/ copying over several programs, as each program may have its own multi-effects chain? In other words: I know you could copy over one program w/ all of its effects settings in place, but what about several different programs? I assume they would all have their own, unique effects settings and that they would be sacrificed for the sake of the sequence?

2) For Radias EXB owners - I looked but couldn't find a patch list... does it include an virtual analog drum kit?

3) Finally, an Audio Input question... after reading the manual, I want to make sure I understand this... can you can monitor incoming audio live while in sequencer playback mode? It seems as if you could treat the M3 as a "mixer" by running the analog/digital out of another synth directly in to the M3 while the M3 is playing a song (and/or sequencing the external synth). I was thinking of having my Revolution R2 (an Acid Bass synth) plugged in to the M3 to have the M3 sequence/monitor/sample it on the fly (this setup works nicely with the MachineDrum).

Thanks in advance for helping clear this up!

I'll address your first question. You just found one major downfall of the m3 (In my opinion) And this downfall goes all the way back to the days of (at least) the Triton. It's hard (almost impossible) to make a full sequence will all the sounds sounding the same as they did in program mode. You have to get creative here my friend. You've got to prioritize. Look at the programs that you want to use and compare how the effects are used and routed... then try to emulate it the best way you can. It's really not too bad, but it can be limiting.

It's not that bad as you say it Apex. All workstations have this downfall but M3 has the most flexible Effects Routing system among all (not counting Kurzweil PC3 and OASYS).

What other workstation lets you have 3 band EQ on each of 16 parts and allows you to put 5 stereo effects in series with feed in from any point in the series. You have 5 IFXs, 2 MFX, 1 Master Effect. Each of these processors can be any of the 100 or so effects algorithms. You get to save your settings as presets. You can copy effects from one program to other, one combi to other, on song to other and from programs and combis. You can automate effects settings by insert effects changes in sequencer easily. You can route multiple parts to same IFX. The list goes on...

Both Yamaha Motif XS and Fantom-G effects routings are flawed, with Fantom-G being the worst.

Fantom-G has 16 PFX (patch effects), but no EQ per part. So most of the time you will end up using the PFX as EQ... so there goes your effect. Then there are 2 MFXs, 1 Reverb, 1 Chorus, and 1 Master Compressor. You can copy effects around, you can't save presets, you can't route multiple parts to same PFX. The effects are tied with patches, not song. So you can't try different sounds for same track without losing your effects tweaks. It's the worst effects system out there.

Yamaha Motif XS is a little better than Fantom-G, since you get individual EQ for each track. You have 16 IFXs with 2 for 8 parts. But it has the same flaw, you can't route in series more than 2, you can send multiple tracks to same IFX, you can't copy settings from one to other, you can't save your ... everytime you want to audition a different sound for same track you loose your effects tweak.....

Actually Shak, with the Fantom G (if I remember correctly) tweaks made to patches ARE saved with the song and not to the patch. I've heard of/read/seen people that use their studio modes as EXTRA USER PATCHES. pretty neat idea. huh?

[Shakil]

Apex.... yes.... until you select a different patch. Dial a different patch to audition and your dearly tweaked EQ effect is gone for ever. Hope you had written it down on paper. ;-p

Trust me, no one knows the Fantom-G effects as I do.

Not the studio mode. Studio mode doesn't let you save patches. It's the song, not Studio Set. And still ARX is not saved with song.

You can save individual programs with Song on Motif XS and XF as well.