How are banks organized & can they be easily reorganized

[nowtime]

Curious as to how easy it will be to reorder progs and combis so that my favorites are all concentrated in the first 25 or so of each bank. I remember reading somewhere that some banks are dedicated to specific sound engines but that most can be mixed within a bank.

I am assuming the editor will have a nice screen where you can just drag and drop presets in whatever order you please and then send! and the Kronos is rewritten. Yes?

[EvilDragon]

Set List mode can be used for that.

[cello]

I guess set list could be used that way - but; set list doesn't change the locations in the banks themselves - it merely creates shortcuts to the sounds you want quickly.

Otherwise, the K filing system is exactly like the OASYS. And the quick answer is no, you can't change the order of the banks in the way you describe. The long answer is that it is possible to create your own order but will literally takes dozens of hours to do it (particularly with combis) as they all refer to hard-coded locations of programs. Change the program location, you will change any combi that uses that program.

There is no librarian approach to filing sounds. This is why many O users back-up complete banks under different names to call up when needed - for example, I have a complete O soundset with Karo Movie collection, then another with symphonic library, then another with IrishActs then another with Kevin Nolan's sounds and finally several of my own, all installed on a large backup drive permanently attached to the O. This is much easier and quicker than editing the onboard sounds.

As per Akos Janca's useful signature, if you want to learn more about the Kronos, then pay a visit to (and search) the OASYS forum.

[McHale]

I have complete banks saved with different orders of patches for different shows. Set List mode is the greatest feature for me...

[aron]

>The long answer is that it is possible to create your own order but will literally takes dozens of hours to do it (particularly with combis) as they all refer to hard-coded locations of programs.

Interesting. Too bad there's no move command - then all of the combis could be altered to reflect the new program location.

[Kevin Nolan]

Curious as to how easy it will be to reorder progs and combis so that my favorites are all concentrated in the first 25 or so of each bank. I remember reading somewhere that some banks are dedicated to specific sound engines but that most can be mixed within a bank.

I am assuming the editor will have a nice screen where you can just drag and drop presets in whatever order you please and then send! and the Kronos is rewritten. Yes?

If you change the order of the factory programs, then you will affect all of the combis that reference those programs. On the OASYS, I took the decision to leave all factory presets alone because although I do not use factory combis directly in compositions, they are an awesome reference source for various genres, effects, programs combined into rich textures, and most especially Karma. There are literally thousands of hours of programming in those Combis and they are too valuable a resource to wipe clean from a Kronos.


On the OASYS, it came with quite a few banks free (User A, B, C, D and G) but as the EXis were released they filled up even those banks, leaving just most of User A and G for personal programs. So with all the EXis on board it's likely that even most of the Kronos User banks will be filled.


However - since you get just three banks of Combis based around HD-1, AL-1 and CX3 only, you need only worry about leaving in place Internal A-G and User bank F (containing CX3 programs). I'm assuming there are no Combis based around SGX1, EP1, STR-1, PolysixEX, MS20EX, MOD-7 or the other packs because the SOS review indicated that the onboard programs and combis for Kronos are identical to those on OASYS.


If the case, that means that although User Banks B, C, D, E and potentially G are filled with programs, there won't be factory combis based around them, hence you are more free to go through these and reorganise them without the risk of affecting internal Combis. Again - this is assuming that no factory combi's are based around SGX-1, EP1, STR-1, Polysix, MS20, MOD-7

On OASYS, it took me 3 years on and off, to figure out how to organise my OASYS for my needs. For each EXi, I allocate it a bank from User A, B, C, D, E and G. I then went through my favourite factory programs, my favourite 3rd party ones and my own, and build an optimised set of 100 programs for each EXi. I leave about 27 program slots free for each EXi so that when I'm composing and need to modify an existing program, I have a memory location to store it in, sure that I will not save that modification over another program (possibly affecting other work). After each project, I save edited programs in a permanent on Hard-Disk permanent archive.


I have to say that, although I do not want to be critical of an instrument as stunning as Kronos before it's even released, the shortage of program slots on the Kronos is a failing, in my opinion. By comparison, on even the cheapest plugin, there are essentially unlimited program slots. Korg argue that you have the Hard Disk to save your program libraries. But it's not the same. Critically - the lack of on-board programs locations significantly slows the work-process and complicates organisation of one's work; where editing a program, combi, track or song dozens of times is the order of the day with the ability to track changes, refer to earlier versions and so on as with non destructive editing (but most especially to be able to create and save numerous versions of a program as it's modified though a project) . So in this regard OASYS and Kronos are less suited to the rapid pace, multi-change environment of media/TV/Film work.

Either selling to this cohort is not a priority to Korg or they don't have designers who have worked in media, where as said you simply need masses of space and don't have time to be thinking about lack of program locations.

I realise there's an argument that it doesn't matter how much space you have that you’ll fill it (like your mail box), but I can tell from of experience that even 2 to 3 times the current allocation of program slots would do wonders to the flexibility of using Kronos/OASYS in busy scenarios. I hope they provide an update to Kronos on that front in the near future, where perhaps SSD technology could provided new program storage possibilities. Perhaps with DAW integration software, there will be some capacity to extend program organisation beyond the Kronos and on computer, but we'll have to see.

So be warned - though getting upwards of 1700+ factor programs is great (and Korg do program and combi programming very well indeed so these are very welcome), there may be relatively few, if any, free program slots on the Kronos to save your own, even as it ships. So unless you don't mind wiping over existing programs, organising the Kronos for your work environment will be a detailed job.


On your final point - the Kronos screen is not drag-and-drop as you assume. It's for selection only, not for affecting change on the screen per-say - you need to use the dial, numeric keys or value fader to affect any changes.


Kevin.

[Jon Lord]

Kevin has several valid points about the lack of space. Btw Kevin, kronos comes with even more combi's (and probably programs) so even less space.

Oasys combis: 1,792 user memory combinations (384 come preloaded)
Kronos combis: 1,792 user memory combinations (480 come preloaded)

then not sure how to decypher this:
Kronos: 1,664 user memory programs
(1,536 [768 HD-1+768 EXi] come preloaded)

(Oasys: 1,664 user memory programs (896 (640 PCM+256EXi) come preloaded))

[rkuli]

[quote="Jon Lord"]Kevin has several valid points about the lack of space. Btw Kevin, kronos comes with even more combi's (and probably programs) so even less space.

Is this potentially solved with the Kronos/Computer integration via VST? I think I remember reading that all parameters are saved when using the VST plugin with your DAW of choice. If that's the case, it seems like you would be able to tweak presets or do patch programming to whatever extent you want and save the sounds within the project setting of your DAW. This may not be the ideal method but a reasonable one (if all my assumptions are correct). My board will always be near an iMac or my MB Pro.

RK

[Shakil]

It is not 'less' space. All programs can be overwritten with your own programs.

You can keep one combi bank for your custom selection of programs and combis, in the order you need.

And the new set list feature is great for making sets for your live performances....

I think KORG's file management is one of the most flexible one among all the workstations.

[Kevin Nolan]

It is not 'less' space. All programs can be overwritten with your own programs.

You can keep one combi bank for your custom selection of programs and combis, in the order you need.

And the new set list feature is great for making sets for your live performances....

I think KORG's file management is one of the most flexible one among all the workstations.

Agreed - compared to other workstations, Korg's approach is definitely the best. But compared to plugins, it's archaic I'm afraid.

But the two major issues (from my experience) are:

1) if you want to changed a program that's used in a combi or song, then you have to exit that mode, return to the original program, edit it, save it and then reference its new location in the combi or song. Yes there's some tweaking of programs from song mode, but you cannot edit programs from song mode. So every single edit involves a program mode edit and save. This can become very 'expansive' and demands lots of program space (potentially - depending on the scale of the project of course). So DAW integration will not solve this as flagged above - all that can record are song mode or combi mode tweaks, not the underlying programs.

2) Kronos is _so_ much deeper than any other hardware instrument - to non-OASYS owner new-Kronos owners - you really do not have a sense yet of just how deep and far-reaching this instrument is going to be for you. 128 program locations for each of those serious synth engines is just not enough.


But not to be too critical - there are many ways to skin the cat and no doubt we'll all find out own way. But here's why I reorganised - I accidently wiped over a program I created which has a modified Karma sequence. Such is the vastness of Karma, I have never been able to recreate that program - the blood Karma GE will not respond in the same way. So the (IMO) kick-ass piece I was working on based on that program is now dead and can never be completed. I wiped that program accidently because I needed the space.

So I have a personal loathing for running out or program space - I've lost too many good tracks this way; and it's a completely unnecessary limitation these days anyway. Hardware instruments built on computers like Kronos need to be done with stingy program locations and offer the essentially limitless choice associated with plugins.


Kevin.

[Melodialworks Music]

I assume that backing up before making edits would be a useful part of the routine. Tiresome, but worthwhile if you have to restore something that was inadvertently overwritten.

[cello]

I assume that backing up before making edits would be a useful part of the routine. Tiresome, but worthwhile if you have to restore something that was inadvertently overwritten.

You've got it EXACTLY - never, ever have an editing session without doing a back-up first. And if you suddenly find yourself in the an unplanned editing session, save what you're working on as something else immediately.

Always maintain a reliable and complete sound set somewhere safe - I wish I had known this before starting editing. I bought my O second hand and didn't back that very first sound set...

[Shakil]

Kevin, I agree to your point as well. I listed that as one of two CONS I see in KRONOS (unable to edit programs from Combi/Song ).

But we can't really compare it to VST Plugins.
[Edit] But, we CAN compare it to other workstations. Both, Yamaha Motif XS and Roland Fantom, allow you to edit the programs right from the song. Motif allows you to save edited programs in a separate bank called mix voices. Fantom is more 'flexible', but less user friendly. It saves each patch as sysex before the song header. So you have to save the song. But, you can also then copy the patch to a user slot, if you like. [/Edit]

There are just too many and too many different types on Plugins and Hosts.

I also don't think the 128 programs limit is really valid, because you can save unlimited number of PCG files, and you can load different segments from any PCG, down to the individual program level. You can also preview, at least on M3, the program without actually loading into the existing PCG.

[Kevin Nolan]

Kevin, I agree to your point as well. I listed that as one of two CONS I see in KRONOS (unable to edit programs from Combi/Song ).

But we can't really compare it to VST Plugins. There are just too many and too many different types on Plugins and Hosts.

I also don't think the 128 programs limit is really valid, because you can save unlimited number of PCG files, and you can load different segments from any PCG, down to the individual program level. You can also preview, at least on M3, the program without actually loading into the existing PCG.

Shakil I take you point and do not want to be too critical (he says after being critical!!) - but I and my colleagues have found OASYS a challenge to use in tough, complex jobs - we get there - make no bones about it - but I just think it lacks a bit in design for media work. Admittedly I'm talking about a keyboard called OASYS meaning synthesis studio and although Kronos is better, it is more targeted at live performance.


But you make a really important point - the ability to organise and store as many PCG's on disk as you like - far in advance of most other manufacturers. And the Kronos OS is very straight forward by comparison to say, Roland, in this regard. But the most important point of all is that you can even audition individual programs - and combis - straight from hard disk, meaning that you do not have to load a program to decide whether you want it on board or not - you can go to the PCG, open it on disk, click on the desired program and just play it - controllers and all - on the hard disk, and decide whether or not you want it on board.

This auditioning facility is absolutely fantastic and an absolute God send, it really is. it's one of the very best features of OASYS/Kronos and, as you say, allows for far more fllexible and effective use of the Hard Disk for program and combi archival and usage.

Kevin.

[cello]

To support the point about auditioning even further... whilst I know it's not designed to be used this way - I have often recorded tracks with sounds through auditioning. ie I don't need to do any sound edits, just use it as it sounds whilst auditioning. As Kevin points out, all controllers work in this 'mode'.

It really is a fantastic feature.