Combi Bank Select Output BUG?

ed_f · Post by **ed_f** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:06 pm

Thanks Dan,
I have never seen that in the parameter guide. What I am seeing in the manual seems wrong or lacking - in the combi section it does say:

"When the Status is set to EX2, these parameters allow you to transmit MIDI Bank Select messages for changing banks on external MIDI devices." --- Page 64 User Guide

It doesn't say somthing like "unless you are on the global channel." It does reference page 454 of the parameter guide, which I read before posting here - the way I read it - it still seems wrong it says:

"Gch: The timbre will use the channel that has been selected as the global MIDI Channel (Global 1–1a).

When Status... is set to EXT or EX2, playing the KRONOS will transmit MIDI messages on the MIDI channel specified here. (Messages will also be transmitted simultaneously on the global MIDI channel.)
Bank Select MSB (When Status = EX2) [000...127]
Bank Select LSB (When Status = EX2) [000...127]
Specifies the bank number that will be transmitted when Status is set to EX2. This setting has no effect if Status is other than EX2." --- Page 454 Param Guide

To me this reads that all MIDI messages will be transmitted on the both the midi channel and global channel and even specifies EX2 will transmit the Bank number.

What am I missing?

jerrythek · Post by **jerrythek** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:44 am

What are your settings in Global Mode, MIDI Tab for MIDI Filter?

I believe that if Combination Change is selected then individual Timbre Program Changes don't work the same way. If it is unchecked then I am finding the individual Timbre Changes are sending out the right data, in both EXT and EXT2.

The manual seems to only explain the incoming behavior, not the transmitting behavior. Or should I say the excerpts used for the Help System. I didn't look into the complete manual for more info.

Hope this helps.

Jerry

ronnfigg · Post by **ronnfigg** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:28 am

Ed- I think Dan has pointed you in the right direction. And yes, I have my Hammond connected via the MIDI out on the Kronos. Even though you may not use it this way, might be good to try it that way to see if you can get it to work. In tandem with what Dan said, I have Timbe #16 set to Ext2, transmitting on MIDI channel 16, and the XK1 is receiving on channel 16. And all is well.

ed_f · Post by **ed_f** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:53 am

Ron,
Thanks for the comment - but at this point I am more curious than anything.
I can get it to work, but the answer seems to be it cannot be on the global channel. That to me is not what the manual indicates and is a limitation of the system.
Your note confirms that yes if you are midi channel 16 it will work, my need was to use the global channel and I still can't find anything that says global channel will strip the Bank messages.

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:30 am

ed_f wrote:Ron,
Thanks for the comment - but at this point I am more curious than anything.
I can get it to work, but the answer seems to be it cannot be on the global channel. That to me is not what the manual indicates and is a limitation of the system.
Your note confirms that yes if you are midi channel 16 it will work, my need was to use the global channel and I still can't find anything that says global channel will strip the Bank messages.

After looking through this for a while, I agree that while the information is in the manuals, it's not prominent enough, and should be included in the descriptions of the EXT2 Program/Bank Select parameters. I didn't write these parts of the manuals originally; I'll revise them now.

Selecting Combinations via MIDI uses Program Change and Bank Select messages on the Global MIDI Channel for both reception and transmission (if Combination change is enabled in Global/MIDI). Since it wouldn't make sense to use them for both Combi and Timbre Program selection, the latter is disabled.

The relevant info for Timbres is here:

Combination P0: Play 0–1: Program Select/Mixer-> 0–1b: Timbre Program Select-> Program Select [0...127 (INT and USER Banks), 1...128 (GM Banks)]

"When you select a Combination on the KRONOS, a MIDI program change for the selected combination number will be transmitted on the global MIDI Channel (Global 1–1a). At the same time, bank select, program change, and volume (CC#7) messages will be transmitted on the MIDI channel specified for each timbre whose Status (0–1b, 2–1a) is set to EXT or EX2. However, these messages will not be transmitted for timbres that are set to the same MIDI channel as the global MIDI channel."

However, the next line is the following, which I found interesting:

"In this case, EX2 timbres will show the “Program” Bank as “–”, and will transmit the bank number that was specified in “Bank Select” (2–1a)."

However, that's not the case; the parameter values are displayed as entered, as opposed to being blanked out with a "-". I checked the OASYS, and it works the same as the KRONOS. So, it's been that way for seven years without anyone having mentioned it to me!

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:32 am

jerrythek wrote:The manual seems to only explain the incoming behavior, not the transmitting behavior. Or should I say the excerpts used for the Help System. I didn't look into the complete manual for more info.

Note that the help system uses the entire text of the manuals; the only parts excluded are large tables and large graphics which wouldn't make sense on the display.

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:34 am

jerrythek wrote:I believe that if Combination Change is selected then individual Timbre Program Changes don't work the same way. If it is unchecked then I am finding the individual Timbre Changes are sending out the right data, in both EXT and EXT2.

Have to go right now so I can't check immediately, but I assume that Jerry's correct and that sounds like the solution for Ed. Thanks, Jerry!

ed_f · Post by **ed_f** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:32 am

ed_f wrote:I checked the OASYS, and it works the same as the KRONOS. So, it's been that way for seven years without anyone having mentioned it to me!

Hey Dan - REALLY appreciate you following along on this thread like this - very cool! I will top you on the seven years though. I did a quick test on my Triton and it seems to be the same thing. I just never used it that way before so, it is more like, what? twelve years?

Thanks again - appreciate all your input at least now I have a path forward.

jerrythek · Post by **jerrythek** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:51 pm

danatkorg wrote:
jerrythek wrote:I believe that if Combination Change is selected then individual Timbre Program Changes don't work the same way. If it is unchecked then I am finding the individual Timbre Changes are sending out the right data, in both EXT and EXT2.
Have to go right now so I can't check immediately, but I assume that Jerry's correct and that sounds like the solution for Ed. Thanks, Jerry!

I should clarify that I was searching for a solution for a Timbre that was on the same MIDI Channel as Global. All other Timbres set to MIDI channels other than the Global will send out the Bank/Program Change info regardless of whether Combination Change is checked/unchecked in Global.

Jerry