Chords recognition by Karma

[simur]

Hi, I have one question about the Karma chords recognition. I have posted it also in KarmaLab and I am waiting for a feedback.

I am not sure if depends on any karma combi setting but it seems to happen more or less in any combi I have tried. I made two videos with combi A005 .

In this first video I play each note C, D and E (I play only one note at a time to show it better, but it is the same if I play chords of 3 or more notes) staccato and chords are correct (as you can see from the screen C, D, E)

http://youtu.be/s-fIxm81d8I


In the second video, I play legato the same note sequence, and the chords displayed on the screen are not correct (C, Csus2, Dsus2).

http://youtu.be/0J1iWQxyttY

It is normal ? Is there any setting that influence this behavior? Sometimes for me it is an issue, because if you are using Karma to play with Piano for example, it is hard to change your piano style playing and sometimes the Karma bass and arrangement are not following the chord you are playing on piano.

Thanks.

[QuiRobinez]

that's normal behaviour,

since chord recognition works with the notes you supply (on keyboards and in KARMA) this is the expected behaviour.

in general (when you don't modify keymaps or dynamic settings)
When you hit a note KARMA will create a Major chord pattern for it and use that note as the root note.

So when you hit the C you will hear a C major pattern. when you hit a D you wil hear a D major pattern.

Now when you hit two notes: C and D, it uses the C as root note and adds the 2 of the c major scale, so this is a Csus 2 chord.

When you hit three notes C D and Eb or C and Eb then the chord will be a C minor according to a chord recognition tool.

That's why free piano play never works with a chord tool on a keyboard. You have to force it with your left hand by holding the root note of the scale you play in.

An alternative is to create a hold KARMA GE chord when you use Pads, then you can say that when you hit Pad 1 for instance you will hear a C major chord (bassline and guitar for instance) and that it should play that pattern until you press a new Pad. In that case you can play any piano scale on top of it that you want. So when you want to play the Dorian scale on top of a C major pattern you should set it up this way.

The way i do it is to create a KARMA zone split, where i play arpeggios in one scale with the left hand and improvise freely outside that KARMA scan zone with the right hand, and even then it doesn't work for every track, you have to fit your playing style to the possibilties of that.

Another way is to play octaves with your left hand and the arpeggios with your right hand, just like i did in the combi creation tutorial number 14 in the intro song.

[simur]

Hi Qui,
thank you for your reply, but I have some questions

that's normal behaviour,

...

So when you hit the C you will hear a C major pattern. when you hit a D you wil hear a D major pattern.

Now when you hit two notes: C and D, it uses the C as root note and adds the 2 of the c major scale, so this is a Csus 2 chord.

I understand why I get Csus2 when C and D notes are played at the same time, but when I release the C and I keep pressed the D note I think that it should be updated and recognized as a D chord.

That's why free piano play never works with a chord tool on a keyboard. You have to force it with your left hand by holding the root note of the scale you play in.

Really? I don't have other keyboards to try , but any other arranger has the same behavior?

[ksi]

I think you can modify the behaviour of the chord recognition on tab page P7: KARMA 7­-4: Module Parameters-Trigger. Have a look at Note - Trigger - Latch and Control - Update On Release

[simur]

I think you can modify the behaviour of the chord recognition on tab page P7: KARMA 7­-4: Module Parameters-Trigger. Have a look at Note - Trigger - Latch and Control - Update On Release

Thanks , at the moment I don't have my K but I will try as soon as I can and let you know. Maybe it is the right option...

EDIT: from the parameter guide: "

Update On Release [Off, On]
Allows the  release of  individual  input  notes to  remove 
those   notes from  the   notes going to  the  GE, thereby  
changing  the   effect  to  use only  those   notes still   being 
held.

Off  (unchecked):  Releasing some  notes while  holding 
others   causes   no change to   the   input  source   material,  
and  therefore no change in  the  Generated Effect.  This  is  
the  most smooth and  natural way, and  similar to  most 
advanced auto ‐accompaniment keyboards.
On  (checked):  Notes  that  are released   are  removed  
from  the   input  source   material,   thereby  changing  the  
effect to  use only   those  notes  still  being held. This   is  
typically  the  way  simple  arpeggiators  work, especially 
if  their latch  mode is   turned  off."

[simur]

That's it! This parameter does exactly what I need.

Thanks!

[krkan]

Update On Release [Off, On]
On  (checked):  Notes  that  are released   are  removed  
from  the   input  source   material,   thereby  changing  the  
effect to  use only   those  notes  still  being held. This   is  
typically  the  way  simple  arpeggiators  work, especially 
if  their latch  mode is   turned  off."

I think this parametar/feature can't be stored in any program or combination like all other parameters. It just seems to has been stored, but after restart of Kronos you can go to program or combination which has been stored with this option and you will see that Karma does not recognize key release like before restart of keyboard. It recognize and change phrase only by keypress. If you go on Karma Trigger page you can see this feature is On (checked) because it has been stored before restart. But it does not work as it should. If you uncheck (Turn Off) and then again check (Turn On) this parameter, Karma will recognize key release and will make changes in phrase as it should.

Simur, can you try and confirm this what i am talking about?
I have OS.2.0.6 and don't know if the same problem/bug exists on OS.2.0.2

[cobi]

Qui, thanks for your explanation.

Is this the same functional principle as in entertainer keyboards like the Korg Pa series or the Yamaha PSR series?
I ask because I think about buying such a keyboard for accompaniment purposes.
Currently I use Band in a Box for that but it is not very flexible especially when it comes to improvisation.

cobi

[simur]

Update On Release [Off, On]
On  (checked):  Notes  that  are released   are  removed  
from  the   input  source   material,   thereby  changing  the  
effect to  use only   those  notes  still  being held. This   is  
typically  the  way  simple  arpeggiators  work, especially 
if  their latch  mode is   turned  off."

I think this parametar/feature can't be stored in any program or combination like all other parameters. It just seems to has been stored, but after restart of Kronos you can go to program or combination which has been stored with this option and you will see that Karma does not recognize key release like before restart of keyboard. It recognize and change phrase only by keypress. If you go on Karma Trigger page you can see this feature is On (checked) because it has been stored before restart. But it does not work as it should. If you uncheck (Turn Off) and then again check (Turn On) this parameter, Karma will recognize key release and will make changes in phrase as it should.

Simur, can you try and confirm this what i am talking about?
I have OS.2.0.6 and don't know if the same problem/bug exists on OS.2.0.2

I haven't tried yet.I changed the parameter "on the fly" taking for granted that it was saved correctly. I will let you now as soon as I can. I hope that also Steve Kay could help us if it is a bug. BTW Now my Kronos has been updated to the latest OS.

[simur]

Update On Release [Off, On]
On  (checked):  Notes  that  are released   are  removed  
from  the   input  source   material,   thereby  changing  the  
effect to  use only   those  notes  still  being held. This   is  
typically  the  way  simple  arpeggiators  work, especially 
if  their latch  mode is   turned  off."

I think this parametar/feature can't be stored in any program or combination like all other parameters. It just seems to has been stored, but after restart of Kronos you can go to program or combination which has been stored with this option and you will see that Karma does not recognize key release like before restart of keyboard. It recognize and change phrase only by keypress. If you go on Karma Trigger page you can see this feature is On (checked) because it has been stored before restart. But it does not work as it should. If you uncheck (Turn Off) and then again check (Turn On) this parameter, Karma will recognize key release and will make changes in phrase as it should.

Simur, can you try and confirm this what i am talking about?
I have OS.2.0.6 and don't know if the same problem/bug exists on OS.2.0.2

I haven't tried yet.I changed the parameter "on the fly" taking for granted that it was saved correctly. I will let you now as soon as I can. I hope that also Steve Kay could help us if it is a bug. BTW Now my Kronos has been updated to the latest OS.

Krkan you are right. the combi is saved , in the karma trigger option the "update on release" parameter is checked but if I turn off Kronos, the Karma does not apply the choice, even if the check selection are still there. It is a bug (OS 2.0.6).

Hope that Korg could fix it.

[StephenKay]

Yes, I can reproduce this. However, it doesn't seem to be a bug in the KARMA Engine itself, but perhaps in the storage of data, or filtering on parameters from the UI, or... I'm not really sure. I just don't see how it could be in the KARMA library... because, once you've toggled it one time, it continues to function properly, even switching between different programs that have it turned on or off. It's only when you first power on the unit. Anyway, I've filed a bug report on it and hopefully someone will look into it.

[simur]

Thanks a lot!

Simone