External DAW sequencer: What should I expect to sacrifice?

Discussion relating to the Korg Kronos Workstation.

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Wincott
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External DAW sequencer: What should I expect to sacrifice?

Post by Wincott »

From what I've seen, the Kronos sequencer is poor. No track view, no piano roll, what the hell is Korg thinking? I can't make heads or tails of what little is there. Almost makes me wish to get the Krome.

Honestly the sequencer is more of a factor in the choice between the two than the 3.5X price. Well the price is a factor, but the other features do seem to make it worth it: keybed and build quality for one, all it's excellent engines, sampling, audio recording, the control surface, Karma, more active effects etc. I have no problem with the way the Krome sounds, and it's sequencer... heaven.

So, since I would be forced to use the sequencer on the computer, I'm kinda wondering what would I be forced to give up of the functionality in the Kronos. There are lots of things the Kronos does, resampling and other sampling tricks, bouncing tracks to audio and audio recording that seem like it could be complicated to use both at the same time. I'm not even sure if a computer DAW can capture and edit all the control data and events that the Kronos sequences. This looks like it could be a major problem.

Lastly, I'd love to use onboard sequencing on the Kronos if it was up to snuff and in line with the Krome/M3. As it is, completing the song by making all the important minor event edits looks next to impossible on the Kronos. Such a shame. :(

But I'd like to know if even a computer DAW can be used to make up for that.
I'm not well versed in all this, but I'm not an idiot. Actually I am an idiot, but I'm not a moron. Not a complete one at least. Anyway, thanks for anything you can give me. :)
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QuiRobinez
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Post by QuiRobinez »

you don't have to sacrifice much, it depends on the daw, if you use ableton for instance then you can't record the SYSEX control data of the kronos, if you use cubase then you can use the sysex control data.

But to be honest, most of the time the only thing you need to modify are the parameters of the Tone control, and you can change those with CC messages in a DAW, so if you want to do things like cutoff, reso, ADSR, FM amount, etc. all those things can be done in your DAW.


Personally i would choose any DAW over the internal Kronos sequencer because of the workflow.

You could also use a daw on an iPad instead of the kronos sequencer.

Lot's of possibilities and i doubt that you will miss any feature in the kronos sequencer when you use an external daw
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Post by marc1 »

The Kronos sequencer is something that has been discussed over the years and which is certainly not on par with the rest of this fine machine.
But even the sequencer of the Krome is still quite rudimentary in comparison to what a DAW can do (which doesn't mean that the editing capability of the Krome/M3 would't be welcomed by Kronos users-actually there has been a poll recently concerning this exact topic).

If your aim is to produce music on at least a semi professional level (and not just in a way that might have been appropriate 20 years ago) you won't get around buying a DAW. Programms like Cubase or Sonar are very sophisticated nowadays and with a little bit of knowledge you can even pull off professional sounding tracks with their entry level versions.

The bigger problem (imho) is the connectivity with the Computer. The Kronos is supposed to "transmit audio and midi over a single cable", which sounds good in theory. In practice i've personally decided to get an extra usb audio interface instead, because i didn't get to grips with the way the Kronos interacts (directly) with my DAW. Other users might have other experiences and an overall better understanding of this particular situation, so please don't take my word for granted (I'm certainly not as educated on the subject matter as some of the other forum members, and would also welcome their opinion in this regard).
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QuiRobinez
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Post by QuiRobinez »

marc1 wrote: The bigger problem (imho) is the connectivity with the Computer. The Kronos is supposed to "transmit audio and midi over a single cable", which sounds good in theory. In practice i've personally decided to get an extra usb audio interface instead, because i didn't get to grips with the way the Kronos interacts (directly) with my DAW.

Other users might have other experiences and an overall better understanding of this particular situation, so please don't take my word for granted (I'm certainly not as educated on the subject matter as some of the other forum members, and would also welcome their opinion in this regard).
I can only share my experience on windows computers.
I'm also using and external audiointerface (and ADATS), so i have 28 analog inputs in my daw for my synths, guitars and other gear. The kronos is connected to four analog inputs, 2 inputs are stereo and the other 2 are mono outputs from the kronos to the DAW.

Using the Audio over USB isn't possible in most cases on a window computer, as soon as you use another Asio card you are bound to using only one asio device only. The Kronos can work with asio4all, but i don't really like that solution. Also combining asio drivers on a windows computer is very unstable. So that's why i prefer a dedicated external Audio card solution.

there is one exception in my setup The Access Virus TI is streaming it's audio over usb, you can use that synth with every asio driver you use since it has it's own streaming protocol.
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JPROBERTLA
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Post by JPROBERTLA »

I read about this all the time on this forum, and although I really don't record much, I have built 100s of sequences, done countless edits and perform all the time with the Kronos (Korg) sequencer without any problems. Since the M1 I have been doing this. Is the Kronos sequencer really that bad, or am I so used to its workflow that I just don't know how better a DAW is?
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Post by SanderXpander »

I can't really imagine anything the Kronos sequencer can do that you couldn't do at least as well (and often much better) with a DAW. But I don't like workstation sequencers and don't know your workflow. But 90 percent of the stuff I need daily I couldn't do at all with the Kronos.
Last edited by SanderXpander on Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by danmusician »

JPROBERTLA wrote:I read about this all the time on this forum, and although I really don't record much, I have built 100s of sequences, done countless edits and perform all the time with the Kronos (Korg) sequencer without any problems. Since the M1 I have been doing this. Is the Kronos sequencer really that bad, or am I so used to its workflow that I just don't know how better a DAW is?
I sequenced originally on the Ensoniq EPS (one line of data at a time!) and then the Korg 01/W pro. I got my Mac with Performer around the time I got the 01/W. Never went back to sequencing on board. Screen real estate alone is a reason to go DAW, let alone ease of editing.

If your workflow is that you mainly play with little editing, then there might not be much advantage to the DAW. I taught a buddy to use Performer, it was frustrating to him. He just wanted to hit record and play. If he made a mistake he played it again. He couldn't be bothered with editing tracks.

For me, I make my sequences in Digital Performer and then save as standard midi files and copy to the Kronos for gigs.
Kronos 2 88, Kronos Classic 73, PX-5S, Kronos 2 61, Roli Seaboard Rise 49
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Post by Burydudexxx »

Be great to see QuiRobinez's audio into daw set up - this has always been an issue for me. I'm researching which is the best external audio interface to get (I'm wanting to connect 4 synths (stereo) and 1 TR-8 + vocals). Is it too cheeky to request a vid on this Qui ? :-)
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Post by SanderXpander »

Depends mostly on budget. Focusrite is a decent brand that makes affordable interfaces with lots of inputs. If you want to take it to the next level you could go with something like RME. In between you'll maybe find something like MOTU, though they are not known for their support on Windows.

Most bigger interfaces also have ADAT in/out for an additional 8 ins and outs. You can use an old ADAT recorder or a specialized converter.

To be honest I think this is one of those things that you are better off spending more money on initially than replacing it eventually. All your sound will be going through there. With a mediocre interface, you can really tell once you start layering tracks, and your computer will perform worse (it'll be quicker to produce pops and cracks at lower latencies). Additionally, if you record vocals a lot, it might be nice to invest in an interface that has an on-board reverb. Vocalists can be particularly sensitive to latency due to comb filtering (which happens because there is a very slight delay between the sound in their headphone mix and the sound they hear through their own head) and sometimes near-zero latency monitoring is the only way to make them feel right.

In any case, if you sprung for a Kronos and have a bunch of other synths, you sound pretty serious. Definitely don't skimp on the interface.
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QuiRobinez
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Post by QuiRobinez »

Burydudexxx wrote:Be great to see QuiRobinez's audio into daw set up - this has always been an issue for me. I'm researching which is the best external audio interface to get (I'm wanting to connect 4 synths (stereo) and 1 TR-8 + vocals). Is it too cheeky to request a vid on this Qui ? :-)
a video about this is not that easy, every audio interface is different, and the way to do it in a daw depends on the daw. So a tutorial would be way to specific for one case to really show how to do it. But in my specific situation i'm using these 'simplified basics':

in my case i'm using the MOTU 828 mk3 FireWire audio interface with two adat units that add 8 inputs each.
The Motu detects if an adat unit is attached with toslink and if it is connected you will see the 8 adat input and 8 adat output channels added to your interface. There are two toslink inputs available so you can use two adats (and add 16 channels that way).

When i did that it was easy, let's say that we do it for cubase:
- open cubase
- go to the connections window
- there you can set your inputs and outputs routings
- route every channel to the motu channels
- save the configuration as a preset, so you don't have to do this again.
- add audio tracks in cubase and route them to each input (you can create a group trackfor this in cubase to store all the inputs beneath it)
- save the projects as a new template so you can select it every time when you create a new song

This is a basic setup in cubase, you can make it more complicated , like for instance say that motu audio channel 1 and 2 are always used for the kronos, in that case create and external instrument named kronos in cubase and route the input channels 1 and 2 to that external instrument. Now whenever you need the kronos just select it in the VST instrument window and in the cubase midi tracks you can select your kronos and timbre channel. The benefit of this is that the audio is latency compensated, so if you use a VST or audio loop or sample drums in cubase it will always be sample accurate in sync with your kronos. Cubase takes care of this.

If you use the audio tracks way (the basic setup) then you have to do the latency compensation per track or overall in the connection window. The most easy way to determine the latency is to go to the device window in cubase and check your input and output latency, add those two numbers and then you have the latency value you can use. There is also a ping feature in cubase if you use external hardware effects to determine the audio chain delay, so that's also something you could do.


Now for ableton live it's a little bit different, there you don't have the connection routing window. There you create your audio channels or external instruments, by pressing the IO button on the right side of your screen you get an extra input / output dropdownlist where you can select your input / output channels. Your motu or adat channels are also available there. Store the external instrument and then you can select that whenever you want.

In one of the other threads on this forum i explained more about this, here's an example of how to use the Kronos KARMA engines with any VST instrument. If you look at step four in the screenshot you will see that i routed the kronos external instrument to audio inputs 7/8 which means that any audio over analog input 7 and 8 in my motu will be considered the audio of that kronos external instrument.

Image


So you see, just two basic and rather simple examples how you can start with it. My own setup is a lot more complicated than this, so there is a lot possible, but first start experimenting with the basics otherwise the advanced stuff can be understand. Advanced stuff i use is things like dynamic routings and internal patch possibilities. For instance if i want to route my kronos output through the filters of my virus TI, then i can do that with a couple of mouse clicks in cubase. I don't have to change any cable in my studio at all. Or if i want to use the output of my kronos as an input of a VST Glitch Insert effect or as realtime input in a VST granular synth and sample the result of that vst in the kronos, then it's also just a couple of mouse clicks. This setup can all be done in the connections and routings windows and with presets you created upfront in cubase. It's very powerful to do this in a studio setup.
Last edited by QuiRobinez on Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jimknopf
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Post by jimknopf »

I use a Focusrite Scarlett 18i6 (8 analog inputs, 2 of them Microphone) and have added a Focusrite Octopre via ADAT, with 8 more inputs, to be able to record anything from synths over bass, guitar and e-drums to vocals or sax. Works without any problems.

Qui, since I only use the Kronos stereo outs so far, I would be interested to know what you do with the addional two outputs for recording.
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Post by QuiRobinez »

jimknopf wrote: Qui, since I only use the Kronos stereo outs so far, I would be interested to know what you do with the addional two outputs for recording.
i use it for instance to seperate sounds, for instance a piano over the stereo outputs, and the bass over one of the mono outputs, etc.

Another trick i use is when embedding the iPad into the kronos audio chain. For instance when i want to use the iPad as a realtime effect machine (for instance for filter drops, LFO cutoff patterns, huge reverb bomb effects then you have to route the complete audio output of the kronos to the two seperate outputs. Then the L/R output of the kronos goes always through the iPad and the end result will go to the DAW (or your monitors). This is also a perfect way to setup when you do recording on your iPad. Then you won't hear what you play directly but always through the monitoring feature of your iPad. It avoids that you record the output of your iPad. So let's say you play a piano loop, then you will hear that piano loop through the seperate outputs. Now when you add a bassline it will only record your bassline but you will still hear the piano. If you only use the L/R setup, then the iPad would record also the piano again, because the output of the iPad was also routed again through the L/R system.

So it's really convenient to use a four port setup if you are doing more advance things with your kronos.
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Post by jimknopf »

Thanks, the iPad setup looks like a very useful idea!

P.S. Does anything like MultiMapperCC exist for Windows 7?
Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5
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QuiRobinez
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Post by QuiRobinez »

jimknopf wrote:Thanks, the iPad setup looks like a very useful idea!

P.S. Does anything like MultiMapperCC exist for Windows 7?
in ableton it does exist for windows 7 as it's an Max4Live device, for cubase you can do the exact same thing by using the quick controls feature in cubase. In that case assign the same CC numbers as in my screenshot to the 8 quick controls setup screen in the device manager window. Then you can use it for any parameter that you assign to those 8 knobs in the kronos and do full automation for it in cubase.
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Post by Burydudexxx »

Thanks Qui for the above info - that's really helpful - now off to do some shopping :-)
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