Love Affair With Yamaha Coming To an End

street · Post by **street** » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:28 pm

kronoSphere wrote:Fortunately for us all Leornado da Vinci did not use an arranger when he painted Mona Lisa

I bet you're also funny in real life

Mr_SamDoogie · Post by **Mr_SamDoogie** » Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:21 pm

I seem to fail in comprehending why the Montage feels like a disappointment to some of the lot on its specs and features. I can understand the feeling of getting awry what's been delivered ,For some of you knowing the brand and their keyboard for so long.

Some of yamaha's priced keyboards are practically inside this Performance keyboard just not in way one would feel to recognized them. The interface is different how it works inside is different. I'm not a pro but it takes me months to finally grasped a keyboard of this caliber.

Even my trusty Korgs learned me a things or two to appreciate its inner and sounds.

kronoSphere · Post by **kronoSphere** » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:50 pm

more seriously : all the musicians who use those arranger-machines make me think about those sellers in music-shops who, during their demo of workstations, always play the same type of sounds for the same type of musics. Electric pianos for playing funk or soul, acoustic pianos for classical or jazz and, helas pads for pseudo illuminated new age music. An arranger machine always go in the worst ways of arranging music, always go in cliché on and on and on. With all the sames chords structures for the same types of muscs. Just boring. Music needs really to be really : thought before being played

aron · Post by **aron** » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:53 pm

Will find out shortly. I will have the Montage 88 on top of a CP4 in for live shows. I bet it sounds great.
If the Montage sounds great, I will admit it. Just like I told (my) truth about the Jupiter hehehehehe.

GregC · Post by **GregC** » Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:26 pm

kronoSphere wrote:more seriously : all the musicians who use those arranger-machines make me think about those sellers in music-shops who, during their demo of workstations, always play the same type of sounds for the same type of musics. Electric pianos for playing funk or soul, acoustic pianos for classical or jazz and, helas pads for pseudo illuminated new age music. An arranger machine always go in the worst ways of arranging music, always go in cliché on and on and on. With all the sames chords structures for the same types of muscs. Just boring. Music needs really to be really : thought before being played

I agree with you. When I produce/create music, I am not interested in sounding mostly like some one else.

I enjoy putting my own embellishments and sometimes fit in a mini arrangement. And rolling my own Programs.

In addition, and for example, I am aware when most keyboardists are using the same Roland JV/XP sound. Or the Motif sound.

When I hear these sounds hundreds of times, I lose interest in acquiring that gear.

miroxp · Post by **miroxp** » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:51 pm

I didn't expect my first post to ignite such interest. Thanks a lot to everyone for the info and suggestions. I guess you guys even started some discussion within your own community on certain aspects of the Kronos as continuation of my questions. I guess time will tell how Yamaha will go on with its product lines and what we'll have available in the future. This is their decision and they will have to live with it just like we, the consumers. I also, as a new member here, hugely appreciate the tolerance and the good tone to someone who is not a Korg guy by definition in this forum! I believe that Kronos would answer all my needs if I go for a workstation and no new Motifs are available. I already knew Kronos is superior sound wise and this was never an issue. Still, I believe Motif is more advanced in its sequencing capabilities and composing and stringing a song together would be better executed. Valid point is that it would take a different mindset and attitude when approaching work on the Kronos and not so much the technical capabilities which obviously are not that far apart. I asked for opinion here because it's easy to demo an instrument sound wise at the store but there's no time enough to demo how a song production would go especially on a machine that complicated. Anyways, thanks a million to all of you who participated so far!

aron · Post by **aron** » Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:19 pm

>I already knew Kronos is superior sound wise and this was never an issue.

It is different. It is not all "superior". It depends on what _you_ like.
Believe me, there are probably going to be lots of sounds that you will miss from your Motif. Some sounds of the Motif fit well in the live band context much better than the Kronos (stock sounds). The Kronos is amazing once you work with it, but out of the box, for me, it required a lot of work.

street · Post by **street** » Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:08 am

The Kronos is not "superior" sound-wise.

Sound-wise the Kronos sounds very, very good.

Regarding engines - we love to claim "9 engines" but when you think about it - SGX, EP-1 and HD-1 are all basically part of what Yammy calls AWM2.
ALL of the 9 engines combined are what Roland calls "SuperNatural engine".

AL-1 is an amazing engine on the Kronos, I'll grant you that. but Polysix and MS-20? Those are the same as the legacy collection that I already have since 12 years ago as VSTi.

STR-1 - this one is so negligible, it's almost laughable.
Don't let me even start talking about guitar tones. even with the best guitar libraries for the Kronos it doesn't even touch the Integra 7.

I guess some people who invested in a $3,500 synth are constantly looking to justify the cost.

I really enjoy having the best of all worlds. no one keyboard does it all.

Montage is incredible, but forget that. Have a serious look into the Roland Integra 7 - you'll be amazed.

Bachus · Post by **Bachus** » Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:55 am

GregC wrote:
kronoSphere wrote:more seriously : all the musicians who use those arranger-machines make me think about those sellers in music-shops who, during their demo of workstations, always play the same type of sounds for the same type of musics. Electric pianos for playing funk or soul, acoustic pianos for classical or jazz and, helas pads for pseudo illuminated new age music. An arranger machine always go in the worst ways of arranging music, always go in cliché on and on and on. With all the sames chords structures for the same types of muscs. Just boring. Music needs really to be really : thought before being played
I agree with you. When I produce/create music, I am not interested in sounding mostly like some one else.

I enjoy putting my own embellishments and sometimes fit in a mini arrangement. And rolling my own Programs.

In addition, and for example, I am aware when most keyboardists are using the same Roland JV/XP sound. Or the Motif sound.

When I hear these sounds hundreds of times, I lose interest in acquiring that gear.

You know its quite easy to create your own styles and sounds in todays high end arrangers?

But when you look at the general use of arrangers, they are very well suited to replay music as it is heared on the radio.. and thats what the majorrity of people tries to accomplish playing them..

But a high end arranger like tyros 5, PA4x or Audya has the same depth as most workstations (with offcourse Kronos being the exception)

I think most people base their opinion of arrangers not on their possibilities but on how they see other people using them.. as much as i love the Kronos, i could never live witouth an arranger, sometimes its just fun to sit down and play the music you love... while at other times, you want to show the creative part of yourself.. Having both makes a perfect solution untill someone comes around and puts them both in a single instrument, witouth concessions to either side ...

street · Post by **street** » Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:51 am

Bachus wrote: I think most people base their opinion of arrangers not on their possibilities but on how they see other people using them.. as much as i love the Kronos, i could never live witouth an arranger, sometimes its just fun to sit down and play the music you love... while at other times, you want to show the creative part of yourself.. Having both makes a perfect solution untill someone comes around and puts them both in a single instrument, witouth concessions to either side ...

True. also important to note, that except for pianos and e. pianos Korg puts much better acoustic sounds (both sound-wise AND playability-wise with all articulation) on the PA4X than the ones on the Kronos.

with an high end arranger such as the PA4X you can do all layering/splitting as easy as a press of a button. the built in styles, variations, intros, drum breaks are nothing that you can have on a Kronos, for example. Today's arrangers don't sound like general midi anymore, but like a real professional arrangement conceived live with an easy way to have all your sounds within reach including superior articulations.
people think of arrangers as keyboards with the "speakers on top". while it's true that many models have speakers on top, the high end arrangers don't and it's a completely different beast than a workstation. as a solo performer, I'd take an arranger over a workstation/performance synth anyday.

another example with the PA4X would be the ability to connect a MIC and having instant harmony which correspondence with the chords and SCALES you're in. it also doesn't matter which inversions you play. the detection is amazing for bass, for harmony, etc. you shouldn't be so close minded about it.

https://youtu.be/QNYpN-Ywhng?t=4m50s
Here's a great example at 4:50

btw, to OP - "Love Affair"? come on..

GregC · Post by **GregC** » Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:29 pm

Bachus wrote:
GregC wrote:
kronoSphere wrote:more seriously : all the musicians who use those arranger-machines make me think about those sellers in music-shops who, during their demo of workstations, always play the same type of sounds for the same type of musics. Electric pianos for playing funk or soul, acoustic pianos for classical or jazz and, helas pads for pseudo illuminated new age music. An arranger machine always go in the worst ways of arranging music, always go in cliché on and on and on. With all the sames chords structures for the same types of muscs. Just boring. Music needs really to be really : thought before being played
I agree with you. When I produce/create music, I am not interested in sounding mostly like some one else.

I enjoy putting my own embellishments and sometimes fit in a mini arrangement. And rolling my own Programs.

In addition, and for example, I am aware when most keyboardists are using the same Roland JV/XP sound. Or the Motif sound.

When I hear these sounds hundreds of times, I lose interest in acquiring that gear.
You know its quite easy to create your own styles and sounds in todays high end arrangers?

But when you look at the general use of arrangers, they are very well suited to replay music as it is heared on the radio.. and thats what the majorrity of people tries to accomplish playing them..

But a high end arranger like tyros 5, PA4x or Audya has the same depth as most workstations (with offcourse Kronos being the exception)

I think most people base their opinion of arrangers not on their possibilities but on how they see other people using them.. as much as i love the Kronos, i could never live witouth an arranger, sometimes its just fun to sit down and play the music you love... while at other times, you want to show the creative part of yourself.. Having both makes a perfect solution untill someone comes around and puts them both in a single instrument, witouth concessions to either side ...

Actually, I find todays pop music to be highly derivative and Boring.

I am into the older material when melody and arrangement was king.

But I will give tyros 5, PA4x etc a tour. I am spoiled by Kronos quality.

GregC · Post by **GregC** » Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:32 pm

street wrote:
Bachus wrote:

https://youtu.be/QNYpN-Ywhng?t=4m50s
Here's a great example at 4:50

btw, to OP - "Love Affair"? come on..
no sale

Davd C. Polich · Post by **Davd C. Polich** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:37 am

I have a Montage 6, a Motif XF6, and Kronos X61. I use them all in music production. But just as sound sources - I do the sequencing, audio recording, everything actually, on my computer in Digital Performer 9.

My Kronos X61 is not built "shoddy". I love it. In fact I like it better than the Kronos 2...the wooden end panels don't do it for me. Nevertheless, the build quality problems of the Kronos were with the VERY FIRST RUN of the ORIGINAL KRONOS, and Korg addressed those, and offered to replace the joysticks and jog dials free of charge. There was never an intent on the part of Korg to cheat people or release a poorly built product. Sometimes problems occur in early production runs.

The Montage was never intended as a workstation. You can still buy a
Motif XF or XS on eBay if you need those features. That said, Montage does sound great, in particular its FM, which sounds like no other FM anywhere. I prefer to consider it as an awesome FM synth with a sample-playback engine thrown in.

street · Post by **street** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:16 am

Davd C. Polich wrote: I prefer to consider it as an awesome FM synth with a sample-playback engine thrown in.

I partially agree here.
FM-X indeed is the most amazing FM implementation I've ever heard.
some of the new presets in the 1.1 update for Montage clearly show this.

but I wouldn't just dismiss the AWM2 as thrown in for good measure,
because memory wise the Montage is almost 10 times the XF. and has the entire XF sounds included plus tons of new incredible sounds and full backwards compatibility.

btw and unrelated, the Montage also brilliantly removed what was known for ages as "Bank" (128 programs/voices).
now, there are 1920 performances (which are either program OR combi, Korg terminology), a USER area of additional 640 performance slots, and ADDITIONAL 8 library areas which is basically the same as user area, 640 performances/programs/combis each.

I agree with you, outboard sequencing is so much better and easier than working on the little screen of a workstation.
I think it'll be only a matter of time until Korg ditches this one as well due to cost/efficiency of implementation, in my opinion ofc.

GregC · Post by **GregC** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:20 pm

street wrote:
Davd C. Polich wrote: I prefer to consider it as an awesome FM synth with a sample-playback engine thrown in.
I partially agree here.

I agree with you, outboard sequencing is so much better and easier than working on the little screen of a workstation.
I think it'll be only a matter of time until Korg ditches this one as well due to cost/efficiency of implementation, in my opinion ofc.

I partially agree here. Due to cost/efficiency of implementation, Korg will also ditch RH3/standard keys for mini keys.

Mini keys are so much easier to use, reduces overall weight. IMO

They will also brilliantly remove all the surface controls, knobs, controllers since they are replaced by an app for your smart phone. IMO, ofc