Korg Forums

Hi there,
My love affair with Yamaha is coming to an end after so many years. I don't know what possessed them but as of the present day Yamaha do not have a flagship workstation! They introduced that thing called Montage, which is fine with me even though I wouldn't award it with a second look, and decided to drop the Motif line in the process. Aside from the questionable motives (hahaha) to come up with a hardware sound box, a concept that proved wrong years ago, now I don't have the option to buy a true workstation in the future. Montage lacks the most important feature - a full blown sequencer - and I'm having a really hard time wrapping my mind around the fact that people don't even think it's that necessary. Constant hook up to a computer is not an option for me since developing emotional connection with a desktop is not my cup of tea. Now, enough ranting. Since Yamaha, Roland and Kurtzwell are out of question, I need to know firsthand how Kronos X compares to Motif XF in terms of sequencing, programing, editing, mixing and playing a full song all on its own? I will use a DAW eventually for additional editing and comping but I need an instrument that is natively capable of doing all the above on its own. I already know the instrument sound wise and will also use high end software synths anyway so this is not my concern. MIDI is also a huge point obviously so your comments on that would be appreciated as well. So, pros and cons of Kronos X as a workstation? Cross brand experience would be best! Thank you for helping a Yamaha guy...

I have a Motif XF and the Kronos too. They both are two different beast.
The Korg is better overall as it has a much better sampler, and 9 nine different synth engines. Need i say more?

The Kronos is top of the line workstation with different synthesizers onboard, the Motif XF is more like a great Rompler with very complex sampling capabilities and and probably a good sequencer, I don't use it.

The Montage sorta failed the workstation department, because that's what they wanted to design, a synthesizer and not a full blown workstation.

But Yamaha will upgrade the OS in a few years to turn it into a full blown workstation with a full blown sequencer and sampling capabilities in the future in sure. They may release a new workstation with full blown workstation capabilities and an OS update for current owners, or just an OS update for the current model.

It's a two tier sales program that these synth manufactures are employing to add revenue in selling two different synthesizers.

Korg did that with the Kronos. They sold a shoddy cheap scratchy plastic version of the Kronos in the beginning and then introduced the real version with wood side panels and better built electronics with an OS upgrade after they got everybody to buy the first cheap version first.

Yamaha is doing the same, they're selling a limited function version of the montage, and then they'll introduce a full blown version after they get everybody to buy this model first. Guaranteed.

kday wrote: Korg...sold a shoddy cheap scratchy plastic version of the Kronos in the beginning and then introduced the real version with wood side panels and better built electronics with an OS upgrade after they got everybody to buy the first cheap version first.

This is all incorrect: (1) there aren't any significant differences in build quality between the various KRONOS versions; (2) not everybody likes wood side panels, and my 5-year-old original plastic ones aren't scratched at all*; (3) there's no difference in quality or functionality between the original and the updated electronics, Intel just discontinued the original m'board; (4) all OS upgrades work in the original KRONOS and are available at no cost from Korg...

df

*...although I would replace those plastic ends with Oasys-style ones if I could ever get hold of that guy in Germany...maybe I'll have to make my own...

Although I have the Kronos 2, i don't think Korg sold a cheap scratchy plastic. Build quality is not so different between them.

kday wrote:

Korg did that with the Kronos. They sold a shoddy cheap scratchy plastic version of the Kronos in the beginning and then introduced the real version with wood side panels and better built electronics with an OS upgrade after they got everybody to buy the first cheap version first.

.

Maybe you had some bad luck with the first 61 off the assembly line.

But I am enjoying the heck out of my 5 yr old 88.

There are many 5 yr owners so your comment doesn't fit. Lets not re-hash
since all this was sorted out a long time ago.

miroxp wrote:Hi there,
My love affair with Yamaha is coming to an end after so many years. I don't know what possessed them but as of the present day Yamaha do not have a flagship workstation! They introduced that thing called Montage, which is fine with me even though I wouldn't award it with a second look, and decided to drop the Motif line in the process. Aside from the questionable motives (hahaha) to come up with a hardware sound box, a concept that proved wrong years ago, now I don't have the option to buy a true workstation in the future. Montage lacks the most important feature - a full blown sequencer - and I'm having a really hard time wrapping my mind around the fact that people don't even think it's that necessary. Constant hook up to a computer is not an option for me since developing emotional connection with a desktop is not my cup of tea. Now, enough ranting. Since Yamaha, Roland and Kurtzwell are out of question, I need to know firsthand how Kronos X compares to Motif XF in terms of sequencing, programing, editing, mixing and playing a full song all on its own? I will use a DAW eventually for additional editing and comping but I need an instrument that is natively capable of doing all the above on its own. I already know the instrument sound wise and will also use high end software synths anyway so this is not my concern. MIDI is also a huge point obviously so your comments on that would be appreciated as well. So, pros and cons of Kronos X as a workstation? Cross brand experience would be best! Thank you for helping a Yamaha guy...

You might be set with the Kronos.

I love the SEQ. I create multi program cover songs and some originals.

The Kronos is a song writers dream, IMO.

There are many good reasons why owners are enjoying the Kronos

I think you should read this thread: http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... p?t=100575

And later watch these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMb458uk_QM

https://youtu.be/HGKiVHVCHVc?t=133

My favorite one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyHYnmVbICE

Going the OS update route for major enhancements isn't something Yamaha has done in the past. The upgrades they have provided have been modest. If you look at the Motif series, it was always a workstation. If anything they reduced, not added, functionality with the elimination of the plugin boards in the later versions.

IMO, the reality is that both Yamaha and Roland have given up on the high-end workstation market.

Busch.

burningbusch wrote:Going the OS update route for major enhancements isn't something Yamaha has done in the past.

Busch is right. I remember when I had the MOTIF XS the "TAP TEMPO" update was released after the MOTIF XF launch.

One down side to Kronos is with the impressive 16 timbre combi mode. It blows all the other workstations away when you consider the dual oscillator options with deep layering per velocity range, all in program mode, plus step sequencer, all in program mode.

Thats just in the programs which then go on to stack up 16 timbres deep in combi mode.... Theoretically.
Remember i started about the down side of it. Now that i covered how theoretically superior it is, the down side comes when you try to fill those 16 timbres for a phat combi. The combi will slot whatever you put into it but some program selections will cause it to disintegrate from a functional combi after stacking only few timbres deep into the Combi.

Now, don't think its useless, I have combis stacked 8 timbres deep with some programs that involve step sequencer and complex oscillator velocity layers. I also believe its possible to make combis 16 layers deep with crafty key zoning and careful selection of programs that dont overload the CPU.
The 16 timbres arent to be mistaken for a "fill her up with whatever and drive where ever you wanna go" vehicle. It takes careful planning ,and then comes the synth engines, all 9 of them and figuring out which ones soak up the processor ability and which don't. Its not like the sound engines are categorically banked and you select programs from a sound engine category. They are banked randomly but narrowed down via EXi and HD-1 slots. You have the option to go into the OSC and reassign or set up with samples,waveseq or whatever drawing from the sound engines and then to bank/slot them however you want for easy management. Or have i missed something that allows me to call up programs by the sound engine they are based on??
It can be tedious sorting through the huge content and capabilities while taking note of what works or doesn't work where the combi limitations are. And then the peculiarities per sound engine are there. Some engines dont allow certain types of edits and it makes for some confusion or else extensive exploration of the huge content to figure out whats what.

These issues are all issues of excess, having so much on the plate. A good thing in the long run after getting familiar with it.

All that said, Kronos is overall very flexible and a lot can be done on board alone, there was never any promise that the 16 timbres would stack and work perfectly no matter what was put in em, it seems common sense that the 16 timbres come in handy anyway for less powerful sounds and/or extensive zoning needs and midi filter applications. Maybe even come in handy for more advanced set ups with external devices.
The Kronos huge sound quality is a trade off for Combi layering limitations , and Yamaha doesnt really layer more than 4 layers deep anyway or is Montage up to 8 now? I guess Roland is still at 8 layers. ?

What i dont get is that OASYS came out around 2006 ten years ago and Kronos is basically a more compact and upgraded hardware version of OASYS. The system,content,and function are practically the same.
So, ten years and none of the competition came up with something to compete with the OASYS or Kronos? Or did i miss something with Roland?
Now we are at Kronos 2 and still no sign of the competition closing in.
I guessed that Montage was something to compare to Kronos but i guess again its not even close.
Kronos has it's issues with glitches here and there(hear say while mine is still trouble free in the first year), and i heard Montage described as a superior Controller board for DAW interface. Kronos is a decent controller but what i read is that Montage comes more so DAW ready ,making for easier set up for integrating with computer based suites. I guess software DAW are the future but a good key bed will still be in need and i chose Kronos because it gives me everything i need on the road ,all on the keyboard without an added computer and mixer to carry around. I ditched the korg 32 track i used to carry around -now with Kronos audio tracks and multiple line-in.

What i love is Kronos, me, a vocalist and guitar player. Two line ins on Kronos wth one for the vocalist mic and the other for the guitarist. The trio all hooked into kronos with full mixer board capabilites, effects and all.
Do a small venue in my case or any size venue with just the kronos for a trio. No more lugging around an extra case with audio track/mixer for small venues and small bands. Nice effects to seal the deal for the whole trio.

Hi miroxp,

Firstly, welcome to the forum!

I'm with you in that, although I know my way around a computer pretty well, I don't particularly enjoy using one for music. Although I didn't intend it when I purchased my Kronos, I now use the Kronos sequencer almost exclusively.

Whilst it's certainly not as powerful in terms of editing options as a PC, it is by far better integrated, and in my humble opinion, the effects are of substantially better quality than the ones usually bundled with a DAW. With the Kronos, I find I spend less time working out the optimal way to integrate in control surfaces, searching for and testing VSTs and more time recording. The simplified editing options mean I'm more inclined to get the take right than meticulous editing with a mouse.

The Kronos is one of the only workstations I can think of that also integrate in a multitrack hard disk recorder. This can be used for resampling, bouncing down MIDI tracks to save polyphony as well as obviously recording acoustic sources.

I use my Kronos to sequence five or six external MIDI devices as well, and it does this effortlessly. I do wish it had another 16 external channels though. One thing to note is that the timing accuracy of the Kronos is generally fantastic, even under load, and MIDI jitter as well as audio latency are far below what I've ever been able to achieve even on a high spec PC system. I think from memory I was getting about 1.5ms *round-trip* latency for audio, which is around the level achieved by a dedicated digital mixer!

I haven't used the sequencer integrated into the Motif line, but I understand they are quite different in their approaches. The Korg sequencer is quite linear in nature with some basic pattern capabilities in the form of RPPR, but this suits my personal workflow anyway.

Through on top of that up to 16 simultaneous effects, inbuilt sampling (and in-track sampling), time stretching, flexible signal routing, KARMA, large amounts of internal storage, support for a wide arrange of USB devices and 9 synth engines and I can safely say that the Kronos has completely replaced my PC for composition and performance. I still use a PC for more heavy-duty mixing and editing though.

I do know some Yamaha users have found moving to Korg to require a shift in mindset and approach (As I'm sure the converse also requires), but if you can I think you'll be on a winning track.

I just hope Korg doesn't go the same way as other manufacturers and abandon the workstation concept.

Coming from Motif, I think you will miss the easy pattern based song construction from its sequencer. Korg doesn't have this it all. There's RPPR but it's limited and not even relevant for the purpose.

On the other hand, you'll have more flexible (but more complicated) FX routing and 16 audio tracks.

Though there is just beside me a full PC (32Go 2To and 250 ssd) linked to my kronos it's a fact that IMHO there will always be an ineffable pleasure to lean on the kronos to compose a song with its sequencer. And I still keep my XS rack.

I've never used a computer to compose music. I started with Yamaha QX and SY sequencers. I really liked the Roland XP and early Fantom sequencers. Then, it was the Triton, followed by the OASYS, which has the same sequencer as the Kronos (except at 192ppqn resolution and only 16 bit recording) .

I'm currently scoring a slasher feature with the Kronos, controlling a Virus TI. As someone else noted, it is nice to be able to use Kronos as a mixer. I have the OASYS (S/P DIF), Virus (Inputs 1/2) and an Ipad (USB input) plugged into it.

I have not played with the Motif sequencer, but I like Yamaha gear. I do know that the arps on the Yamaha are awesome, while Kronos uses KARMA and RPPR, which is not as user friendly.

Some things you may not like:

The Track View screen is somewhat small; lots of info, showing 32 tracks (including the audio). It may be hard to see, if you are not used to it.

Assigning IFX. This isn't automatic, like it is with a Virus. Tip - if you have a Combi or Program with a lot of FX, press ENTER and REC/WRITE simultaneously. This will give you the option to bring an entire Combi, or your first sound in with all the effects used by it. After that, you need to Import or set up effects for other programs

MIDI EVENT EDIT is vertical, instead of left to right. When I first got the Triton, I didn't like this kind of editing, but it is improved on the Kronos system.

No Veloctiy by percentage adjustment. Same with Gate. I miss those, as I used them a lot. However, you can use TONE ADJUST to aid with this.

No Song Chaining. Funny because the Triton sequencer had the CUE LIST, which allowed you to do this. With Smooth Sound Transition, it would really come in handy on the Kronos. I keep waiting (since 2005) for the update to come, but it hasn't happened yet.


Now for the good stuff:

Tone Adjust. You can record filter, amp, lfo movements and other parameters.

Audio Track recording. Forget the 128 meg limit on many Yamaha workstations. With Kronos, you can record up to 80 minutes per pass! 24 bit record to disk is available. Record directly to a USB drive, if you like.

Multi Record. You can conceivably record 20 tracks in one pass (16 MIDI, 4 Audio). For the real world, this means I can record myself playing two keyboards at once. Just today, I was recording a Virus arp sound, using my left hand, and playing a pad sound with my right. No need to split the keyboard or trying to replicate the timing on an additional pass. Just pick two or more tracks and off you go.

Bus system with 16 FX. The Kronos has a bus system that is truly spectacular! You can record to an audio track and then route that track (or tracks) into any of 4 synth engines. Do you want to realtime filter your track with MOD-7 or Al-1? No problem. Run into the sub-oscillator of the latter.

You can open the Audio Track folder and throw those tracks into the sampler. Each key can have stereo audio.

Of course, the IFX can be routed to Master Effects or their own Record bus.

Mixer sysex. As with Tone Adjust, you can record your slider and knob movements. You can also make IFX changes to your song. Use PUT EFFECT SETTING TO TRACK and it takes a snapshot of your IFX. You can change the effects at any point in the song.

Copy Measure. It doesn't sound like much, but aside from its name, this allows you to copy one or all tracks from one song to another.



Something to keep in mind, Song Copy, Name, Initialize and other menu commands are available on most pages. To find the Track editing menu, go to the TRACK EDIT display page.

Use the COMPARE button for one layer of Undo. You can toggle back, if you want. Really handy for recording multiple passes on one track (ie drums). The Undo allows you to discard your last recording pass. If you have a great bass and snare beat, but you messed up overlaying the toms, you can undo that.


I don't necessarily do high end projects, but no client ever asks me if I use a DAW or hardware. The Kronos spits out a 24 bit wave file and I upload it. Done.