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Kronos2ison wrote:I remember a game I use to play unreall tournament felt a lot like this thread. Like when you stole an enemies vehicle. You would here a voice say.. Hi Jacked.. lol What are you guys even talking about? Does the Yamaha have a FM radio built in?

One of the best selling synthesizers of its day, and the first one that was mine and not my father's, was the Yamaha DX7. It was a pure FM synthesizer, with 16 note polyphony and six sine waves per note. Each sine wave could modify other sine waves of the same note, with a certain collection of signal paths available.

With just those tools you were able to create very impressive sounds.

Yamaha rode the FM train for quite a while, ending with the SY99 series which allowed the use of sampled waveforms, not just sine waves.

Yamaha has brought back FM synthesis in the Montage, with eight operators (instead of six), but only a limited number of available waveforms (instead of one with the DX or unlimited with the SY). They've also leveraged technology and massively increased the polyphony of the instrument. There are other really nice performance features in the Montage.

On the other hand, it isn't a workstation. Many people feel that Yamaha has dropped the ball by dropping the workstation features of their Motif series when emphasizing the performance features added in the Montage.

As you can tell by my sig line, I chose to go with the Kronos, and not the Montage. But that kind of decision is a personal one, and there is no wrong answer.

I've also messed around with the Montage.

Don't get me wrong, GREAT sounding instrument as is many of Yammy's toys, but it's not... "powerful" in the sense that it took me forever just to figure out how to edit some basic parameters. I've grown up using Kurzweil which is arguably one of the hardest synths to wrap your brain around for programming and I have owned and used Yamaha stuff before too.

Either way, it sounds great and some of the features are cool but it just doesn't give me the inspired goose-bumps that I still get with my Kronos.

Maybe if I could rent one for a month to just get used to it and experiment a bit... But I feel like the Kronos would just be home again afterwards.

fcoulter wrote:...the Yamaha DX7....was a pure FM synthesizer, with 16 note polyphony and six sine waves per note. Each sine wave could modify other sine waves of the same note, with a certain collection of signal paths available.

With just those tools you were able to create very impressive sounds.

Yamaha rode the FM train for quite a while, ending with the SY99 series which allowed the use of sampled waveforms, not just sine waves.

Yamaha has brought back FM synthesis in the Montage, with eight operators (instead of six), but only a limited number of available waveforms (instead of one with the DX or unlimited with the SY).

An "impressive" FM sound is not necessarily related to the number and shape of the waveforms used...with sine waves modifying other sine waves, very complex sounds can be produced without the need for filters and other typical analog synthesis signal modifiers...so a limited waveform selection is not that much of a restriction in FM synthesis, you can probably argue that sine-wave-only FM is hard enough to work with...not many people were able to understand even the DX7's FM well enough to program their own sounds (mostly we just tweaked the presets)...

df

The only thing the montage has to offer over the Kronos is the interface and its studio integration... also the dsp is huge...


For everything else, its still Kronos..

I gave the all plastic Yamaha Montage enough time to figure out how backwards, old school and deprived it was. I literally felt my hands were tied behind my back. The Kronos 2 is so much better than the Kronos 1. I didn't realize the difference was so drastic. The keybed feels better, screen is more responsive, clearer and brighter. Quiet stock fan. 2 more banks of combis. Berlin grand, I have the 61 and it feels way more solid. Everything seems tweaked to near perfection. I just can't get enough.

Kronos2ison wrote:I was at my local Guitar Center and played the Kronos and Montage. I don't get it. Everyone makes a big deal out of the Montage but to me it wasn't that great. I bought the 61 Kronos 2. It just came alive and I couldn't get enough. The Montage seemed very backward hard to figure out and had no sequencer or sampler. The Montage piano sounded over processed and unrealistic compared to the Kronos. I paid $2150 out the door new in box for the Kronos2 61 key and the Manager said it was discontinued that a new model was coming. I asked him if he was talking about a Kronos LS? He said no they just got orders from corporate to move them out with a 4-5 month deadline. So maybe next generation Kronos is coming summer Namm.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the Kronos

> Here's an old one that I made

Thanks for the examples. Yes, I used to use the waveform modulation ability but I guess what I was trying to get at was that it was never a deal breaker for me. Even when they came out of the programmable algorithm - I don't remember anyone really using it that much or demanding it later.

I agree it would be great if they didn't take away features that they already had though. Wish they didn't give up on VL synthesis. My VL1 is going to break soon.

aron wrote:I don't remember anyone really using it that much or demanding it later

I can only speak for myself. My go to string, brass, and guitar sounds were all tweaked in AFM.

Funny thing is, I didn't care for Korgs' early workstations, as they were just ROMplers with lowpass filters (until Trinity came out). I only seriously looked at Korg when Yamaha started getting away from the VL and FM stuff. When Korg added the MOSS option for the Triton series, I was sold.

Even so, I still wished that Korg would flesh out their MOSS VPM (Korg's FM). I bought the OASYS, in 2005, and had no idea that they would add MOD-7 to it, a couple of years later. Man was I in heaven! Still am.

> I bought the OASYS, in 2005, and had no idea that they would add MOD-7 to it, a couple of years later. Man was I in heaven! Still am.

Very cool! Although I loved my DX7 ->SY99 dearly. I wished (at the time) that someone would make controls that were more like analog synths. Pretty happy with the way synthesizers seem to be having more knobs and sliders now.

Mike Conway wrote:

aron wrote:I don't remember anyone really using it that much or demanding it later

I can only speak for myself. My go to string, brass, and guitar sounds were all tweaked in AFM.

Funny thing is, I didn't care for Korgs' early workstations, as they were just ROMplers with lowpass filters (until Trinity came out). I only seriously looked at Korg when Yamaha started getting away from the VL and FM stuff. When Korg added the MOSS option for the Triton series, I was sold.

Even so, I still wished that Korg would flesh out their MOSS VPM (Korg's FM). I bought the OASYS, in 2005, and had no idea that they would add MOD-7 to it, a couple of years later. Man was I in heaven! Still am.

That's my Yamaha view as well. I still love my EX5, FS1r, AN1x and SY99/TG77. They then went more and more down the ROMPLER route with the Motif, whereas Korg seem to have been coming the other way and ending up with a marvellous synth like the Kronos! I still need to try the Montage to see if it holds something for me, but I am in no rush (and no decent music shops within a two hour drive of me!)

Kronos2ison wrote:I gave the all plastic Yamaha Montage

It's plastic? Why the hell is it heavier than the Kronos?

I also just tried the 88 Montage at GC. I recently got a Kronos 2 88 for a great price and am having a lot of fun playing with combis that came with it. Now I have to learn to program what I need to do with Setlists etc.
But the Montage did sound great to me, and I liked it's action over the Kronos but have no qualms with Kronos action. The thing that really looked bad IMO was Montages plastic case. Looked like a good whack and you got a crack.

I have to say that when it comes to preference for sound
sonority and how it is done for instance that particular DX
Phased Gong sound heard in like M.J Beat It I like it more on
the Kronos. FM demos on the Kronos has that extra with AMS.
Although that sound I've understand was a sample on the fairlight,
recreation on the Kronos still sound fuller.

But certain FM sounds on the montage are more pure and crisp.

Jogger wrote:I also just tried the 88 Montage at GC. I recently got a Kronos 2 88 for a great price and am having a lot of fun playing with combis that came with it. Now I have to learn to program what I need to do with Setlists etc.
But the Montage did sound great to me, and I liked it's action over the Kronos but have no qualms with Kronos action. The thing that really looked bad IMO was Montages plastic case. Looked like a good whack and you got a crack.

I liked the action on the Montage as well plus the piano. But overall the Kronos is better suited for my needs.

I'm following this thread hoping to talk myself out of selling my Kronos and getting a montage. I'm not a big programmer I'd rather pick a similar sound I'm after and edit it.

Things I hate about the Kronos most are, the interface, the sample management, the load time and the fact I'm reluctant to purchase sample banks for it as they are so expensive and you don't really own them thanks to korgs locked to one Kronos policy.

The montage sounds great when I tried it in the store. There's always a down side though. Things that worry me about changing is whether the organ will sound ok live. And trying to program simple sounds from scratch may be more difficult using fm rather than analog modelling engines. The other thing is the midi control. I'm hoping it has send and receive filters etc like Kronos.

Still haven't decided yet but will continue to follow this thread and see what info others have