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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:20 pm
by DeltaJockey
GregC wrote:DeltaJockey wrote:
The more I dig into this, and see the tedious work, and various limits, and gotchas, and the expense/investment,age of Kronos I might apply the breaks.
There are other choices(and direction) which might be better long term.
Yes agree, Kronos is not my only egg basket.
I have some excellent symphonic and classical instruments as vst's. And I sometimes spend time replicating the sound of a given "authorised" Kronos program I like with these, that way I have the freedom to play them with whatever controller instrument I like.
The results have been very satisfying. Despite the fact that the Korg libraries offer great instruments, they are not the only solution, and the restrictive licensing to one instrument ensures I look to vst's for the other alternatives.
Vst's also give me the option to retain the libraries I like even when upgrading hardware.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:53 am
by Mike Conway
GregC wrote:Karo EXs50.
I have that library, amongst these, all going at the same time in my single Kronos:
EXs16
EXs50
EXs51
EXs 131
EXs132
EXs133
EXs134
EXs222
I don't use the combis, so I just move the program banks wherever. I overwrite some factory program banks.
Anyway, EXs50 program banks have KARO samples in mainly the first two banks. That's what you want. Banks C, D, and E are programs using Kronos ROM and EXs3 (Brass & Woodwinds) samples. Some nice programs, but I don't use many of them, so I usually just load banks A and B.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:45 am
by matro
The answer is posted in this thread already, but I just want to point out that the biggest issue is the Combis. Combis are really stupid, they just point to a bank and a number. This is where PCG-tool might help you, and running Windows programs on modern mac are even difficult, btw.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:11 am
by AntonySharmman
Kronos and OASYS superiority in HD1 sound development is exclusively based on the existence of Combination interface
and its features else Kronos HD1 Program engine is similar to Triton with very poor features where premium acoustic
instrument sounds development can't be achieved with all articulations and Fx ... WavesArt HD1 sound development
is exclusively based on COMBINATION interface , SGX-2 engine actually works as a Combi of 6 patches and I can easily
prove why a 3rd party library based only on Program patches is too weak to emulate full orchestras or an acoustic
instrument for real time performance , where 10-16 patches are required , advanced users are aware of this.
If we want to get closer to VST modeling & features in Kronos , then COMBIs modeling is one way option and if you
want just to use HD1 Program patches then IMO you'd better learn how to re-sample your favorite VST and create your
own Programs instead of paying others for such a simple procedure ...
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:57 pm
by GregC
DeltaJockey wrote:GregC wrote:DeltaJockey wrote:
The more I dig into this, and see the tedious work, and various limits, and gotchas, and the expense/investment,age of Kronos I might apply the breaks.
There are other choices(and direction) which might be better long term.
Yes agree, Kronos is not my only egg basket.
I have some excellent symphonic and classical instruments as vst's. And I sometimes spend time replicating the sound of a given "authorised" Kronos program I like with these, that way I have the freedom to play them with whatever controller instrument I like.
The results have been very satisfying. Despite the fact that the Korg libraries offer great instruments, they are not the only solution, and the restrictive licensing to one instrument ensures I look to vst's for the other alternatives.
Vst's also give me the option to retain the libraries I like even when upgrading hardware.
I hoped to find a junior version of EXs 50, and tried to demo the EXs 51.
I had quite a remapping mess as this sample lib did behind the scenes shifting
of factory sax and horn programs. Or maybe it was other EXs it grabbed.
Anyway, the install did not give the option of both the K1 and K2, It had a pop up saying ' new order, say yes or no '. I tried both variations with out success
and also used ' clear ' and append. Bottom line- not a satisfactory result.
Not surprising, EXs51 is a unison orchestra so it fell short of what I needed.
If I had a 2nd K and $600 to spend on 3rd party orchestra that might give me the work flow I was dreaming about. Otherwise, its VI time. My MBP has been ready for it.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:12 pm
by Mike Conway
GregC wrote:
Not surprising, EXs51 is a unison orchestra so it fell short of what I needed.
Like any orchestral mocking, it takes work to get what you need out of it. You might remember the demos I did with that library and EXs50, on the OASYS? I posted this in 2011:
KUO #3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHD_WgzVPO0
Two others if you want to hear more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0nGYoIHaek
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxscJe4Fmrc
Not trying to change your mind, but at least you can hear it in use. I still use EXs 50 and 51, but I've added 5 more orchestral libraries, since. My Kronos is an orchestral monster.
I'll probably do a new demo, with all the new libraries soon.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:51 pm
by pedro5
Would like to ask a question, please.
The EXs 51 list the programmes in User GG as EXs 3.
Are these Karo or Korg samples ?
With Thanks.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:21 pm
by GregC
Mike Conway wrote:GregC wrote:
Not surprising, EXs51 is a unison orchestra so it fell short of what I needed.
Like any orchestral mocking, it takes work to get what you need out of it. You might remember the demos I did with that library and EXs50, on the OASYS? I posted this in 2011:
KUO #3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHD_WgzVPO0
Two others if you want to hear more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0nGYoIHaek
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxscJe4Fmrc
Not trying to change your mind, but at least you can hear it in use. I still use EXs 50 and 51, but I've added 5 more orchestral libraries, since. My Kronos is an orchestral monster.
I'll probably do a new demo, with all the new libraries soon.
those sound very good, Mike, thanks
I guess ' work' is something to be defined. I don't mind working EQ
on the instruments- thats not a big task. But I don't have the time to tear
the Program apart and re-assemble it.
Initially , combis are important in that they give me some context of how the author suggests to use his sounds. Once I hear that, the Unison combi is not needed much.
Ideally, I wanted to make my K a better orchestra. I don't have the O, like you do.
I cleared the decks for the EXS 51. My User FF and User GG were empty as a bank account after a robbery. Combi space is a non -issue.
I am puzzled why the EXS load process scrambled my factory sounds as much as they did.
I believe the EXs51 wants to use the factory samples- but my guess is that the EXs muscled the required factory samples elsewhere. Which is not cool as I rely
on factory sounds to sit still and not go anywhere else.
I will give the install 1 more hack.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:42 pm
by Mike Conway
pedro5 wrote:The EXs 51 list the programmes in User GG as EXs 3.
Are these Karo or Korg samples ?
There are 3 banks in my version that use the EXs 3 samples, from the Kronos ROM. Kind of an odd library, in that 3 banks of programs are mostly not KARO, samples, though there are some.
The A and B banks that I have, use all KARO samples. 5 banks total. Again, I bought my version for the OASYS, but I have it loaded into the Kronos.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:21 pm
by GregC
Mike Conway wrote:pedro5 wrote:The EXs 51 list the programmes in User GG as EXs 3.
Are these Karo or Korg samples ?
There are 3 banks in my version that use the EXs 3 samples, from the Kronos ROM. Kind of an odd library, in that 3 banks of programs are mostly not KARO, samples, though there are some.
The A and B banks that I have, use all KARO samples. 5 banks total. Again, I bought my version for the OASYS, but I have it loaded into the Kronos.
Yeah, my guess is that Exs51 is looking for some of the Exs 3 samples in U GG ?) and not finding them. Some are in my A user bank.
My songs and the factory combis point to Programs A user bank , User AA, User BB, User CC.
I can't handle losing those reference points, or going back and forth loading KSC/PCG files to restore my original sounds and/or using Exs51 in some capacity.
Fortunately, I backed up all my data before dancing around with the EXs51.
My guess is that EXs51 doesn't share well. Or my current EXs don't.
I have deleted this Exs51 demo and PCG.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:54 pm
by Mike Conway
GregC wrote:
Yeah, my guess is that Exs51 is looking for some of the Exs 3 samples in U GG ?) and not finding them.
Like I said, I would not even bother loading the non-KARO sample programs. The good thing about that library (at least what I have) is that all the programs using KARO's samples are together in two banks.
GregC wrote:I guess ' work' is something to be defined.
By "work," I mean that making an orchestral sequence sound decent, there is a style of playing and panning/placing of the instruments. Two people can have the same library, but one can sound awful, while the other guy worked at it to "seperate" the instruments, so they aren't one big mush stack.
I'm probably going to compose a new piece, so I have these orchestral diagrams out, so I can get better with my instrument placing.
Ideally, I wanted to make my K a better orchestra. I don't have the O, like you do.
I literally have all the sounds loaded into my K. The OASYS 3rd party libraries did not have Authorization Locks, so they all load into the Kronos, which is awesome!
I don't mind working EQ
on the instruments- thats not a big task. But I don't have the time to tear
the Program apart and re-assemble it.
Initially , combis are important in that they give me some context of how the author suggests to use his sounds. Once I hear that, the Unison combi is not needed much.
For people, like yourself, who don't want to fuss with it, I would suggest Antony's WaveArts' libraries. He also offers (for a fee) to configure your programs and combis, so that everything is working in harmony. You might want to go that route.
Me? I like to work with programs, only, 99% of the time. I like to make my own stacks, inside Songs. Every project I work on, is saved in its own Directory, with associated programs and songs. My projects are tailored to the programs I'm using for it. It doesn't matter that I write over factory programs that I'm not using for that project.
Honestly, I couldn't imagine keeping my Kronos in one "state" of operation. I'm always loading samples and programs, either from the OASYS or new projects. Otherwise, how do you stay fluid and play with new stuff? I like new sounds. I can always reload the factory banks, when needed.
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:13 am
by GregC
Mike Conway wrote:GregC wrote:
Honestly, I couldn't imagine keeping my Kronos in one "state" of operation. I'm always loading samples and programs, either from the OASYS or new projects.
Otherwise, how do you stay fluid and play with new stuff? I like new sounds. I can always reload the factory banks, when needed.
How ? I am creative with what I have. I have 39 originals on SC. All using
Kronos. I can arrange and compose. Have my own approach and committed to it.
Not 1 other board for these songs. My K is essentially a K2.
The K is a great song writing partner- even with its limits/constraints- which
I am approaching, from my perspective.
I understand that almost everyone else prefers a huge diverse palette and several boards. Sweet water doesn't call me much, for example.
I am at the point where I am wearing out the K2. But i am also motivated by the recent sale.
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:18 am
by Mike Conway
Not saying you're not supremely creative, Greg. It's just that there are a lot of people who are afraid to touch the organization of the Kronos.
Just the other day, some guy on an OASYS forum asked how he could get all the expansion engines to work. They were not authorized. (Were talking 13 years after the instrument came out.) I have also tutored people who have had that board for many years and didn't realize that they could play MOD-7 programs, simply because they were not loaded.
Same with the DX7 and the repair guys noticed that nobody changed their presets. It is very common.
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:31 am
by Mike Conway
GregC wrote:I understand that almost everyone else prefers a huge diverse palette and several boards. Sweet water doesn't call me much, for example.
While I have a lot of boards, which I like to show in videos, the Kronos is the only workstation I use. I control it with the OASYS, because it has the bigger keyboard and pads, but the O is rarely making sounds. Granted, I add some Virus and Deepmind to the mix, but for an orchestral type song, it will be 100% Kronos.
It is the only keyboard I actually need. If a fire hits, I'll grab my Kronos and my songwriting won't suffer because everything else is gone.
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:50 am
by AntonySharmman
If any third-party EXs(XX) library is looking for factory EXs samples then it should had been designed in KSC level to load
those samples and definitely not using main factory Program banks that might not exist in user's factory setup.
Mike works with standalone programs since he is experienced in film scoring orchestration , position and panning of instruments
in a Symphonic orchestra and strings divisi of frond seat and back string elements like I do (judging from laid papers of orchestra division)
although there is a great difference from just re-sampled Strings section stuff in a Program and very specific strings sections sampled
with articulation in natural space dimension & panning on actual seats of Musicians in Symphonic hall (WavesArt's sampling resources).
But how many keyboard players and composers are skilled on how a Symphonic Orchestra is arranged , what kind of Strings/Horns/
Brass/Woowinds/percussion section instruments have to use , how to map them and finally how must be played on a keyboard especially
in real time performing in order to simulate a real Symphonic Orchestra ?
Here is the usage of COMBIs that shouldn't be just a suggestion of Pro sound developers and Music conductors of how Programs are
used , but contrary they must be developed in order to reveal a real symphonic orchestra with all articualtion grouped in the same
Combi using the proper controllers , when just playing a few notes in the right order and scale position ,taking always care of Kronos
polyphony limitation , that the majority of end users are not able to create.
This is the pricey cost of an EXs among others ...