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I'm sure that many of you are in the same getting low on open program slots place as I am or even worse. At the moment, I only have User Bank G empty and about 110 slots in User Bank A empty.

I assume that when I finally get disks for EXs3, I'll probably add that too and there goes User Bank G.

Considering I'll also add the Karo Philharmonic strings at some point, I'll probably put those that will fit in the remainder of User Bank A and then POOF I'm out of empty slots.

What to do then if I want to load more sounds???

I realize that I always have the option of not loading EXs2 (the big Steinway) in order to save enough ram to fit more programs in but how will they be designated by program or combi number?

Do you also have to make a choice of not loading another instrument like AL-1 to provide a "designator" home (or slot) for the next new batch of sounds?

I certainly didn't realize how tight bank capacity would be when I bought it.

What do you do?

Ken

I'm about to say "spend your money" when i realise that's a different bank

Ken,

First a little information to help you understand the difference between a Program and Multisamples/Drumsamples.

PROGRAM
-- just a bunch of data settings
-- occupies very little space (data size is tiny)
-- is stored in a special memory space (Program Banks)

To understand what I mean by "data settings", go to Program Mode and pull up Program "A000 OASYS Piano". If you select the "P1: Basic/Vector" tab you will see that there are a number of parameters (data fields) that have specific current values. Some examples of Parameters and their current data values on the Basic/Vector tab (Program Basic sub-tab) are:
-- Program Name = A000 OASYS Piano
-- Oscillator Mode = Single
-- Voice Assign Mode = Poly
-- Key Zone OSC1 Bottom = C-1
-- Key Zone OSC2 Top = G-9
etc.

Imagine you went through all of the sub-tabs within the Basic Vector Page writing down each Parameter and its current value setting. Then imagine you continued to document each parameter and its associated value for all of the Program Pages (Program P0:Play through Program P9:Master/Total Effect). I have never tried to count them but let's say there are a total of 100 different parameters in all of those Program mode pages. The actual currently defined values of all of those 100 different parameters IS the Program "A000: OASYS Piano". If you then pulled up "A001: Dreaming Sweeper" and wrote down all of its current parameter values you would find that some data values are different. Each specific Program is nothing more than a "snapshot" of the current values of all of the parameters in those Program menu pages.

Korg provides storage for Program data as follows:
-- Provides Program Banks INT-A through INT-F, and USER-A through USER-G (a total of 13 Program Banks)
-- Each Program bank can hold the "data settings" for 128 Programs
-- Program Data is stored in a special memory location that is always available when the unit is powered up
-- Korg provides special hardware buttons (Bank buttons when in Program Mode) to access these different Program Banks

Program banks (really the Program data for each bank stored in memory) don't take up very much data space. The program data (all of the data in the Program Banks) is also stored on the hard drive in the form of a .pcg (Program - Combi - Global) data file. If you were to go to Disk Mode, then select the "Factory" folder, then Open that folder you would see a file called "Preload.pcg" which is the factory Program-Combi-Global data stored in a physical file. Note this file is only 16MB. If you open the Preload. pcg file, then open the Programs section, you can see the individual program Banks. For example, Program Bank I-A only uses 772 KB of space (less than 1 MB).

MULTISAMPLES

Multisamples are the real, underlying sound/audio files that are used in Programs that use samples (as opposed to some programs that don't use samples). A multisample is the name used to describe a physical set of samples that have been keymapped across the keyboard (i.e. a Multisample includes a number of individual samples). For example, if I were to sample a guitar, I might sample/record myself playing 10 or more pitched notes, which I would then want to spread across the keyboard keys to make my Piano "instrument".

If you go to Program Mode again, select Program A000: OASYS piano, select the "P2: Osc/Pitch" tab, then select the "OSC1 Basic" sub-tab. In the MS-1 to MS-4 (Multisample section) you will see the actual multisamples this program uses:
-- MS-1: 002:Acoustic Piano 1 ff
-- MS-2: 002:Acoustic Piano 1 f
etc.
These multisample names can be cross-referenced in the Voice Name List "Multisamples" section. Note the multisamples for Program A000 are found in the "ROM stereo" set of multisamples.

It is important to understand that a Program itself does NOT contain Multisamples -- the Program only contains references/pointers to multisamples.

The Multisamples take up a lot of space since they are real audio files (just like .wav or .aiff files). In the OASYS, all of these multisamples (and Drumsamples and WaveSequence samples) are stored on the hard drive and loaded into memory (RAM) on power up.

I like to think of a Program SOUND consisting of two layers:
1. Program data -- just a bunch of data settings including pointers to multisamples
2. Multisamples -- the actual .wav/.aif audio sample files.

When talking about Programs it is important to keep "Program Data" and "Multisamples" separate in your mind, since they have vastly different sizes, and are stored in different memory locations.

In the OASYS Global Mode, Basic Setup pull-down menu, "Expansion Sample setup", these options:
-- EXs1-ROM (284 MB)
-- EXs2-Concert Grand (464MB)
-- EXs3-Brass & Woodwinds

are refering to MULTISAMPLE storage, not the "Program data" itself. If you were to de-select EXs-1, the EXs1 multisamples would be unloaded from memory/RAM (freeing up 284 MB), but this would DO NOTHING to the Program data (the Program Banks). You could select a Program from one of the Program Banks (e.g. I-E001 Coming Home EXs1), and the Program information would be displayed, but no sound would come out if you played a keyboard key. This is because the Program Data is loaded, but the underlying Multisample data is not loaded.

With the above background, I can answer your questions.

kenackr wrote: What to do then if I want to load more sounds???

"Loading more sounds" really consists of two parts:
-- storing program data for those sounds (in the Program memory banks)
-- loading the actual underlying Multisamples

Program banks (i.e. program data) can be overwritten easily, and can be recovered by simply re-loading the associated Program Bank from the Factory.pcg file.

Loading Multisamples that are not part factory multisamples (e.g. Karo or AKAI data, or your own .wav or .aiff data) would require that you unload some or all of the EXs Expansion data.

The OASYS is a computer that has a total of 2GB of memory/RAM. That memory has to hold the Operating System, Korg software, and multisamples (this is a similar concept to a personal computer with a fixed amount of RAM that uses that RAM as memory for the OS, software and data).

A software sampler on a personal computer will only load a sound at a time (or a small set of sounds). This means that if you select a different sound on a PC or Mac, there is a time lag that occurs to load the selected sound. A software sampler (like Kontakt 3) may come with a thousand sounds but you are only loading at most a few sounds at the same time.

With the OASYS, Korg wanted to create the "workstation" equivalent regarding sounds, so ALL sounds are loaded on power up. This allows multiple sounds to be played at the same time, and allows instant selection and playback of different sounds (since all the sounds are loaded into memory up front).

kenackr wrote:
I realize that I always have the option of not loading EXs2 (the big Steinway) in order to save enough ram to fit more programs in but how will they be designated by program or combi number?

By not loading the EXs2 MULTISAMPLEs, you have freed up memory to allow loading of other multisamples. The Program bank relating to EXs2 (User A) still contains nine Programs (8 piano programs + 1 vocoder program). You can create and load another set of Programs to the User-A Program Bank, which would overwrite that bank. The factory bank could be reloaded later.

The program locations are not fixed in stone; you can move them around if you desire with the following caveats:
1. Combinations (also just data settings) include program REFERENCES but not the actual program data. This means that the Combi only stores the Program bank and number (e.g. Program A001) but really doesn't "know" what is stored there. If I replaced Program A001 Piano with a guitar program (replacing the existing piano program) the Combi will use "A001" regardless of what is stored there. Effectively this means a Combi might not sound correct if you have changed the contents of the Program 'slot' it references
2. A Program Bank can store "HD-1" programs or "EXi" programs, but not both in the same bank (I think this is correct?)

kenackr wrote:
Do you also have to make a choice of not loading another instrument like AL-1 to provide a "designator" home (or slot) for the next new batch of sounds?

Sort of. You DO have a fixed number of both Program and Combi Banks (a program Bank holds 128 Programs, a Combi bank holds 128 combis). An AL-1 program doesn't actually use Multisamples like HD-1 programs do.

kenackr wrote:
I certainly didn't realize how tight bank capacity would be when I bought it.

Tying physical bank buttons (program and Combi) to physical memory locations is a double-edged sword because:
-- some people want a lot of "empty" banks to store their own creations
-- some people want all of the bank buttons to be full of factory sounds

With tradtional workstations (Korg Triton-M3, Yamaha Motif XS, Roland Fantom X) the amount of "slots" is fixed in stone -- i.e. they can't be changed.

With the OASYS, it MIGHT be possible to modify the OS/Korg software to provide more Program and Combi slots, perhaps by using another physical key (like the Funtion key) to toggle between additional banks (just like hitting the Program Mode button or Combi mode button switches the the banks accessed by the bank buttons.

kenackr wrote:
What do you do?

What you can do is create a series of different .pcg data files and load them as needed. A .pcg file can store ALL program/combi/global data, or just store a single Program bank.

kenackr wrote:I'm sure that many of you are in the same getting low on open program slots place as I am or even worse. At the moment, I only have User Bank G empty and about 110 slots in User Bank A empty.

I assume that when I finally get disks for EXs3, I'll probably add that too and there goes User Bank G.

Considering I'll also add the Karo Philharmonic strings at some point, I'll probably put those that will fit in the remainder of User Bank A and then POOF I'm out of empty slots.

What to do then if I want to load more sounds???

You can save thousands of banks on disk, and load them in seconds. That's what I do!

Best regards,

Dan

danatkorg wrote: You can save thousands of banks on disk, and load them in seconds. That's what I do!

Best regards,

Dan

It would be nice to have some additional Program and Combi banks accessible via buttons (and stored in memory) so one doesn't have to manage the whole "which bank do I overwrite?" process.

MartinHines wrote:

danatkorg wrote: You can save thousands of banks on disk, and load them in seconds. That's what I do!

Best regards,

Dan

It would be nice to have some additional Program and Combi banks accessible via buttons (and stored in memory) so one doesn't have to manage the whole "which bank do I overwrite?" process.

Yes - we understand that this would be desireable.

For now, I just make sure that when I've made important edits, I've saved them to disk as PCG files. So, it doesn't matter so much which bank I load into; everything important in RAM has been saved to disk. I load and save PCG files frequently. For projects, I tend to copy all sounds to my own banks; I keep User-A as an HD-1 bank, and User-B as an EXi bank. I can then load anything into any of the other banks, with no fear of overwriting anything that I've been using or editing.

Best regards,

Dan

Martin,

Thanks for the very thorough reply and the time it took you to write it.

I was afraid that the answer would be that you have to overwrite existing banks.

It seems such an inelegant solution for such a great instrument, but at least it's a viable workaround for now.

Dan,

Thanks for sharing your sound management technique.

Having read all 19 pages of the Oasys wish list, I'm aware of how many people want so many different things. There is no question how difficult it is to sift through it all and pare it down to what can be done, for how much money, and in what direction will that take the platform.

From my perspective as an Oasys owner, I'll just say that while more ram and more banks will always be welcome to users (I'm not discouraging that), there will always be a limit.

The long time solution to how to manage "new" sounds that come along in the future will probably lie along the path of a built-in flexible librarian function that allows one to "repack" banks in any way each individual user desires.

As long as the soap box is out, it's very obvious that the sequencer needs to be updated and that fact does not seem to have reached Korg inc in a way that portends a change.

Would a petition of Oasys owners make a dent or are we too small a market segment ?

Ken

It's the same as with any workstation/synth - learn to archive/backup/swap/overwrite/substitute your PCGs/SNGS, Samples etc. Most of us who ventured into adding to our palette of sounds learned a successufl system for doing so with other gear (e.g., the Karma). HOWEVER - DO NOT overwrite your factory presets unless and until you know exactly what you are doing. That is tantamount. Why? Most reputable 3rd party developers rely on those factory presets for their material. So does Korg. Case in point - Korg's combis for their latest EXs3 library use some of the programs from the internal presets.

I have quite a few banks of material, both finished and in-progress work. It's a simple process of saving to my OASYS internal hard drive and backing up to external USB devices (flash stick and larger stand alone hard drive). You should be very careful that you save ONLY the material that needs to be saved. You do not need to save all the program banks, all the combi banks, all the sngs, the global settings etc, UNLESS you have modified them (which I do not recommend for factory presets). So, if you have a development bank of programs in U-C, for example, save only that by unchecking all the other banks before you hit OK. Likewise, do the same for other items you want to save.

Now, the trick is to, again, be very careful when you go to Load pcgs etc. Open up the file so you can see what is there and load only what you want loaded. Clear? It will be after a while.

Cheers,
Eric

Eric,

Thanks for the tip on the Internal Korg presets.

Does that apply for all preset internal sounds of the HD-1 variety? Would I assume correctly that none of the LAC, str-1, or mod-7 sounds are included in that?

More to the point: user banks b,c,d,e ?

Ken

I've already spoken of my interest in having extra program banks available on the Oasys at length, so I'll be brief and paraphrase my previous points.

I am definitely keen for it to be implemented and if the issue is one of memory, then I previously suggested allowing more advanced users to ditch some of the Combi banks and use the freed memory space for Program banks. There are more Combi slots than Program slots, which I can't personally see a use for. It's like having a kitchen with 50 dedicated cutlery drawers, when you only own sufficient cutlery for a small family

This limitation and the inability to edit Programs in Combi mode will hopefully be rectified and let the Oasys' wonderful synth engines really shine in an environment worthy of them.

Daz.

Other threads where this subject was discussed, in case anyone is interested in catching up on previously presented opinions :

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=29649
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=27073
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=27018

Daz,

Thanks for the posts, I had not seen your earlier posts and appreciate just how deep you got into this area. I guess great minds do run in similar channels, re the librarian as a way to manage space.

I had no clue how much more space was alloted to combi's, just hadn't thought about it. I agree with the concept of allowing the user to cut up the ram pie in their own way.

By the way, thanks to both you & Sharp for the forum, I love it!

Ken

Hi Ken,
That includes anything that came with the OASYS - all the internal banks. I would however, be reluctant to overwrite the CX3 organ in Bank U-F, and STR-1 in bank U-E.
Cheers,
Eric