Technology and the creative process

[Synergy]

he's told me that Korg is trying to get Japan to do it and that it's only a matter of time before it takes place.

Seems like the informant has the propensity to inform that the headquater is elsewhere.

[Sina172]

...

[Synergy]

I have a feeling that there are one too many captains on a ship and the ship is about to climb the mountain. Very likely that someone's personal gain is corroding up the ship at the expense of the entire crews.

[danatkorg]

However, as you recently relayed to us, a fair bit of the Oasys environment is relying on older technology from the Triton and thus can't be easily bent into new shapes.

I'm guessing that you're referring to Sina's comments about his discussion with Stephen Kay at NAMM. I don't know what this comment actually related to, or how accurately it was recounted, but I can say with absolute certainty that it is not an accurate portrayal of the OASYS environment, code, or technology.

- Dan

We were talking about the Sequencer in the OASYS, which has more controversy (if I can put it like that) than every other aspect of the OASYS combined. He was just mentioning to me that they would have to re-write the ENTIRE code for the sequencer in order for ANYTHING to happen in terms of getting that higher resolution, piano roll editing, etc.

Stephen is, naturally, a fantastic source of information about KARMA. (I'm always impressed when I hear him work with KARMA in real-time; he really knows how to make it sing.) However, he doesn't actually work for Korg, and the internal sequencer is not his domain. My guess is that this was an offhand comment which may not have been intended the way that it was understood.

It's really a HUGE project, it seems, and he's told me that Korg is trying to get Japan to do it

Korg *is* Korg Inc. in Japan. All Korg businesses outside of Japan are subsidiaries to Korg in Japan. This reinforces my feelings above, in that I believe that the interpretation of this conversation may have been imperfect.

I think if you guys are gonna go through THAT much work in getting the Sequencer up to date, why not throw in FULL Program Mode functionality within the Combi and Sequencer Mode as well?

Daz and I agree with you.

Best regards,

Dan

[dhjdhj]

The main stumbling block is the question of the user conceptual model. If you look at any really successful technology that people are able to use well, it's because they have been able to create a useful mental model of what's going on. Once you have a mental model, you can much more easily do what you want with the technology "getting in the way".

Consistency and extrapolation are a very important part of this. A good implementation allows the user to say (or think), "if I can do A by doing B then I should be able to do A+ by doing B+" and if that works, then the user will learn more quickly and the product will be deemed "easy to use".

Typical examples include the notion of a clipboard, copy/paste and drag/drop. For example, suppose I have learned that I can drag a chunk of text from Firefox into Word. Can I now also drag an image from Firefox into iPhoto (say)? In other words, my model says "I can take something from here to there and it will work, no matter what".

This is tremendously valuable.

When I was involved in the computer music research community, one of the things that I found most disturbing was the focus on making bizarre (and in most cases unpleasant) sounds and tones but there was very little activity around aspects of HOW to improve the creative process.

When I look at some currently very popular tools such as Reason, many sophisticated soft synths, and even some of the DAWS (Logic in particular), it takes a very significant effort to get really comfortable with those things....huge functionality but very awkward usability.

Now, I only just got my Oasys yesterday and have barely had time to play with it....while I'm really looking forward to using it live, I'm dreading trying to get up to speed with programming it. Indeed, I've already found that the UI is quite inconsistent. For example, sometimes I can move sliders on the screen with my fingers, but other times, I can't!

I haven't yet figured out the conditions under which they move or not (don't tell me, I have bathroom reading material) but it causes me to stop thinking about the music and worrying about how to make the instrument work. So the user conceptual model is more complicated than necessary.

(Hint --- everything should be non-modal)


D

I'm particularly interested in technologies that shorten the distance between the idea and its implementation - too many electronic instruments are not good in this capacity.

[danatkorg]

I agree with dhjdhj about modality.

For example, sometimes I can move sliders on the screen with my fingers, but other times, I can't!

I'd be interested to hear where you saw this work, since I don't think it's supported anywhere in the UI.

You can drag to scroll lists, however.

- Dan

[dhjdhj]

Well, the irony of this is that I went downstairs to play with it after writing this message and sure enough, I discovered that indeed I couldn't drag sliders ANYWHERE. But I thought I could, obviously because I knew I had scolled something, and of course you're right that I had scrolled using the scroll bar and I just assumed that I could scroll sliders, drag around a knob to turn it etc.

I believe however that I have in fact just proved my own point about the value of user conceptual models!

I was also quite irritated that when I went to a page and scrolled it to see some more instruments, then went to another page and then came back again, the first page was reset to the beginning. This is making it VERY difficult to find my way around because I can't quickly refind a sound that I was using a few minutes earlier because I can't remember where it was!

It's also extremely annoying that I can't click on the COMBO button if a list is already showing in PROGRAM until I press OK or Cancel. (That's part of the MODAL issue) but pressing a HARD button under such circumstances should at least cause a dialog to popup to let you know there's a problem. (AND, there should be options so you can disable such a popup once you become more expert, etc).....these are perfect examples of the kinds of things that get in the way of just USING.

BTW, I'm not at all complaining ---- with my musician's hat on, I LOVE this instrument and expect to enjoy it tremendously for many years. But if I put my software development hat on for a few minutes, I can see TONS of usability issues. (But then again, that's LINUX for you )

I'd be interested to hear where you saw this work, since I don't think it's supported anywhere in the UI.

You can drag to scroll lists, however.

- Dan

[Davidb]

he's told me that Korg is trying to get Japan to do it and that it's only a matter of time before it takes place.

Seems like the informant has the propensity to inform that the headquater is elsewhere.

Well, yeah. According to Korg USA AND Stephen Kay, Disk Mode and Sequencer Mode R&D portion is in Japan whereas the actual software updates, Synth Engines, and bug fixes are done right here in Milpitas, CA USA. It's pretty ironic to me, but I'm hopeful that it'll happen. I'm sure its already in the works and that we are gonna see some amazing surprises within the next major updates (1.4, 15, 16, etc). Cause each time a major update comes out, we'd get a new EXi, EXs, and EXf add-on, as well as the bug fixes and minor user improvements.

Sina

Lets wait an see, then, if Korg Inc has plans to upgrade the sequencer to the one than the OASYS deserves.
But reading Dan´s comments, I do not have high hopes in this regard.

At the moment, as Dhjdhj says there may be tons of usability issues, but what is more important: the OASYS could be more than it is in terms of Internal Sequencer, full workstation concept, and "all in one box" to create music with.

The good thing is that theres is movement in the horizon in this regard, for other brands at least.

In case you didnt, look at these Fantom G screenshot, and pay atention to the Song Edit screens , the Edit screens/Microscop and Step Recording screen:

http://www.piaknow.com/thenewrolandfantomg.htm

I wish my Oasys has half of all that....

Regards.

[Sina172]

...

[dhjdhj]

I struggle to accept the view that there can be an all-in-one solution for both live use and recording.

It seems to me that if one is going to create a record or album, then the capabilities of tools such as Logic, Digital Performer, ProTools, Cubase, etc are stronger than the hardware-based sequencers built in to instruments like the Oasys and other such things by orders of magnitude, even when just used to record and manipulate audio from a single source. This applies to the initial recording phase, the editing phase and the mixdown phase.

Then there are the extraordinary benefits one can get by adding (so many to pick from) AU/VST plugins that are out there.

In particular you can spend no more than $2k (for a laptop, interface, software and decent controller) to get going.


To me, the value of the Oasis is not its ability to be a sequencer, but its ability to be responsive and inspirational as a playable instrument. It's the first instrument I've come across in many years that moves me this way. If you've ever played a regular piano for an extended period of time (so you know it well) and then sat down in front of a Steinway or a Bosendorfer, then you know what I mean.

The built-in sequencer is a terrific scratchpad to capture ideas (and I noted from the manual there's even a quick way to start recording, explicitly recognizing this use of it).

I have not encountered many electronic instruments that have had this impact (and I've tried a lot of them) but I would put instruments like the Minimoog and the Hammond Organ in the same category. I was sold on the Oasys within 5 minutes of sitting down in front of it a few weeks ago....let me tell you, that didn't come from recognizing out that it had a sequencer in it (for example).

Therefore, for what it's worth, I'm very interested in seeing the functionality and the UI extended to make playing it even more inspirational. That's the hard part!

As an aside, I'd love to see the Oasys have some of the capabilities of the Muse Receptor!

[sirCombatWombat]

I struggle to accept the view that there can be an all-in-one solution for both live use and recording.

It seems to me that if one is going to create a record or album, then the capabilities of tools such as Logic, Digital Performer, ProTools, Cubase, etc are stronger than the hardware-based sequencers built in to instruments like the Oasys and other such things by orders of magnitude, even when just used to record and manipulate audio from a single source. This applies to the initial recording phase, the editing phase and the mixdown phase.

Then there are the extraordinary benefits one can get by adding (so many to pick from) AU/VST plugins that are out there.

In particular you can spend no more than $2k (for a laptop, interface, software and decent controller) to get going.


To me, the value of the Oasis is not its ability to be a sequencer, but its ability to be responsive and inspirational as a playable instrument. It's the first instrument I've come across in many years that moves me this way. If you've ever played a regular piano for an extended period of time (so you know it well) and then sat down in front of a Steinway or a Bosendorfer, then you know what I mean.

The built-in sequencer is a terrific scratchpad to capture ideas (and I noted from the manual there's even a quick way to start recording, explicitly recognizing this use of it).

I have not encountered many electronic instruments that have had this impact (and I've tried a lot of them) but I would put instruments like the Minimoog and the Hammond Organ in the same category. I was sold on the Oasys within 5 minutes of sitting down in front of it a few weeks ago....let me tell you, that didn't come from recognizing out that it had a sequencer in it (for example).

Therefore, for what it's worth, I'm very interested in seeing the functionality and the UI extended to make playing it even more inspirational. That's the hard part!

My thoughts exactly, I couldn't agree with you more!

[dhjdhj]

Just after writing this, I read the interview with Rudess in Keyboard magazine. I was struck by two items...

1) He use Digital Performer in his studio
2) 95% of his sound in a Dream Theatre concert is coming from the Oasys.

If that approach is good enough for him....

To me, the value of the Oasis is not its ability to be a sequencer, but its ability to be responsive and inspirational as a playable instrument.

[Davidb]

http://www.piaknow.com/thenewrolandfantomg.htm

I wish my Oasys has half of all that....Shocked

Regards.

WOW! After seeing that page, I just got 1000 times MORE excited about the Fantom G!!!

Yep, I can relate to it,
I´m looking fordward to see its Sequencer and its features in action.

[stevP]

Davidb
Lets wait an see, then, if Korg Inc has plans to upgrade the sequencer to the one than the OASYS deserves.
But reading Dan´s comments, I do not have high hopes in this regard.

At the moment, as Dhjdhj says there may be tons of usability issues, but what is more important: the OASYS could be more than it is in terms of Internal Sequencer, full workstation concept, and "all in one box" to create music with.

The good thing is that theres is movement in the horizon in this regard, for other brands at least.

In case you didnt, look at these Fantom G screenshot, and pay atention to the Song Edit screens , the Edit screens/Microscop and Step Recording screen:

http://www.piaknow.com/thenewrolandfantomg.htm

I wish my Oasys has half of all that....

Hi Davidb,
Having just looked at the screen shots from the Fantom G, I too wish my Oasys had half of all that.... However I am maybe a little more optimistic that we will see something similar coming up on our Oasys in the future. I believe Korg will have to match what Roland are doing as regards hardware sequencing. Roland have just "upped the anti" somewhat, these screen shots look like a sequencer that uses its 8+" wide "screen estate" to its maximum effectiveness, very user friendly, with its mouse, and "DAWish" type features, copy and paste etc. This looks to be way ahead of what our Oasys sequencer has to offer and it points to the way hardware sequencers are heading.
Now Korg as we all know have led the way in regards keyboard music workstations ever since the dawn of the M1. The Oasys is driven by software, this is the best platform to develop the next generation of korg workstations, and we have the hardware to more than match what the Fantom G has. Once the Fantom G hits the street, there will be side by side comparisons and it will be IMHO actually damaging for Korg's potential future sales. I don't believe Korg will sit and do nothing..... they can't afford to. Lets think about the next five years, Korg simply has to revamp / overhaul its sequencer HD recording, to match what Roland are now starting, the Oasys is the platform they have developed for such as this!!
They will not match it...............................they will surpass it!!!
Will take a little more time, maybe , they like to get things right.
Just my two bob's worth

[kenackr]

Steve,

What you say may in fact turn out to be correct, but there are a million other scenarios that also may come to pass.

No question there are competitive forces at work, but there's no way any of us can predict with any certainty how Korg will deal with them.

Just think about the current price points for both units for awhile.

Ken