Sound designers - new programs please, NOT combi's

[Kevin Nolan]

I rarely rant - but here goes!!

Having played an M3 today for the first time today (in Turnkey, London today - more on that further down); there are many wonderful programs on the M3 not on the OASYS, but which are truly excellent and arguably superior and more usable than their counterparts on the OASYS - in particular I'm thinking of atmospheric and pad sounds.

Hence - I'd be grateful if Korg would seriously consider converting the M3 Program set only (not Combis) for the OASYS.

On a more general note - I notice on other posts that some sound designers are preparing new Combis for the OASYS. Can I implore you here that you redirect yor efforts to creating new programs rather than combi's. I for one never, ever, use OASYS Combis in any of my music, nor do I suspect does any serious musician creating their own music. While Karmafied Combis are useful for demos, and no doubt a significant domain for sonic exploration for those who enjoy creating and selling them, they are effectively useless, generally too complicated, and too 'preset' to be useful in real-world scenarios where new, personalised or professional-project specific music needs to be composed.

On the contrary, exquisitely designed programs - especially with real time control and modulation - are always a welcome addition and necessity to new and innovative music creation. Hence could I ask all those currently busy with creating Combi's drop that basically useless exercise and redirect your efforts to the vastly more useful enterprise of creating fantastic programs instead - they are hugely needed for the OASYS which has been outrageously poorly serviced in this department given its complexity.

New program sets are needed across ALL of the synth engines, yet it appears that nobody is devoting professional programming time to them. Indeed, the programming of atmospheric sounds on the M3 revealed to me today just how much the OASYS could do with an overhaul in this department.

and for those choosing to sell Programs - please be realistic in your charging!!

On the subject of visiting Turnkey in London (I live in Dublin and was in London to see Jean Michel Jarre who played in London on March 30th), the condition of OASYS on display was pitiful to say the least. Before I continue - I purchase all of my equipment from Turnkey and will continue to do so. However, on visiting their store, while many new synthesizers and workstations are on display and look excellent within the shop, the OASYS on display looked absolutely pathetic - with a broken vector Joystick, looking completely mauled and filthy, and perched below an M3 as if it was a big old dinosaur - it really looked awful. Yamaha and Roland workstations on the other hand were given very nice placement by comparison. While Turnkey are proud of their OASYS sales pedigree, I would not buy an OASYS based on the perception given in the shop - it's an absolute disgrace and a complete turn off.

To summarise, I definitely believe firmly that Korg or other third party programmers should divert their best programming talent to revamp the OASYS programs. It definitely needs it across the HD1, AL-1, STR-1, LAC-1 and MOD-7 engines. And I mean really strong sounds that can be played - not over-the-top demos with step sequences and Karma GEs that are useless beyond demo status.

Calling KORG and OASYS programmers - MORE PROGRAMS PLEASE !!!!

Kevin.

[RobertPlatinum]

Thank you I for one agree with you. Sound designers more programs please I've never used a combi on a song so please, PROGRAMS. Karo Programs! Korg Programs! Please also make the programs sound as rich as Combis. Please Transfer the programs from the M3 to the Oasys. I've played the M3 and almost bought it over the Oasys because of it's programs.

[Daz]

Kevin, I completely agree with you. I personally would rather see new Programs instead of Combis, more Program bank space (in lieu of the Combi bank space which serves no purpose to me) and more focus on the instrument as a source of playable sounds and the ability to create your own Programs ... to make your *own* ensembles and musical arrangements.

I think Korg did a fantastic thing with the MOD-7; releasing the official bank of Programs and then the extra banks of Programs which were less complete (but still very useful indeed!). I wonder if they have the same for the AL-1 and STR-1 ?

Daz.

[MrT-Man]

Sorry, I disagree. While programs are, admittedly, probably more useful, I love combis too! I often like to sit down with my Oasys and just play along with combis, because a) it's fun b) it can sometimes give me new musical ideas c) it gives me something to play to, when I'm exercising my chops, practicing scales, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm aware of arranger keyboards, and I'm not looking to get one of those. I don't want a synthesizer that's focused mostly towards making pretty music while I passively sit back and push buttons.

I'm just saying that I enjoy combis and I'm not ashamed to admit it!

[Daz]

Lots of folks are going to agree with you T-Man, Combi's certainly seem to be very popular and in demand. I am sure Karma Labs and Eric will come up with goodies for you guys to play music with. I certainly look forward to learning more Karma mojo from those when they come out, its a cheap way to peek inside the heads of those people who really know how to bring the technology to bear successfully. I can't imagine myself needing all those 1700 (or so) Combi slots filled though 1700 Programs on the other hand would be practically useful.

Daz.

[tritex4]

Yes, more programs, please!!
You got my vote!!

[sirCombatWombat]

I agree that many Combis are like demo songs that you can not do anything serious with.
But I think that Combis are misused, and their potential almost completely missed by many.
For example routing programs through one another, this is hard to do because the programs must be edited separately, but the possibilities are limitless.
And the expressiveness of some of the orchestral combis is fantastic, I often record a combi (like EXs3:000 Orchestra & Timpani) with all programs in separate channels, and then arrange it in my DAW.
And one must not forget stacking for massive instruments.
I mean lets not throw away a great tool because it currently is misused.

[dhjdhj]

For live performance, combis are incredibly useful. I have a generic combi with acoustic piano, electric piano, strings, choir, and brass.

Using the sliders to adjust the volumes of each of those sounds, often just having one on at a time, is extremely convenient, and often easier than messing with program changes.

A minor (but nice) extra benefit is that I don't have to deal with abrupt cutoffs or sudden sound changes because of global effect changes.

[Kevin Nolan]

Thanks for the votes of support on this. I agree Daz - Mod-7 is better equipped with Korg Programs than the other synth engines. I have been a little critical inthe past of Mod-7 programs, but I have found that many of them are better programmed that at first realised. Nevertheless, still virtually no Mod-7 programs are on a par with the hundreds of best SY77 and SY99 available. and I know that Mod-7 can go far beyond what they can offer. But because of the available programs, the SY77 and SY99 feature far more in my music than Mod-7 does.

I agree that many Combis are like demo songs that you can not do anything serious with.
But I think that Combis are misused, and their potential almost completely missed by many.
For example routing programs through one another, this is hard to do because the programs must be edited separately, but the possibilities are limitless.
And the expressiveness of some of the orchestral combis is fantastic, I often record a combi (like EXs3:000 Orchestra & Timpani) with all programs in separate channels, and then arrange it in my DAW.
And one must not forget stacking for massive instruments.
I mean lets not throw away a great tool because it currently is misused.

I completely agree with you here. There are incredibly powerful alternative applications of Combi's that could be a very significant 'new twist' to the OASYS. But alas these are not the Combi's that are developed and sold. I use Combi's all the time, but I use it in ways similar to what you mention - as a sophosticated way of blending programs, or as a template for creating MIDI Songs. If combi programmers came up with weird and wonderful ways of offering very usable and performable Combi templates across various genres - then we're talking.

One idea I've have but which I haven't pursued yet is to layer, say, 8 Polysix programs with different but related programs and arpeggios that blend well together, and with different cutoff frequency ands LFO rates; all mixed in stereo and using various insert effects. Here, such a Combi might provide a very intriguing and adaptable realtime performance tool when adding moving texture to an instrumental electronic track. One can extend this concept with various realtime controllers. I'm sure there are a multitude of ways of exploring Combi's as usable multi-programs or as exceedingly well spec'd templates; but usually Combi's released are like complete songs - with most of them based on Dance and Hip-Hop grooves.

But whatever about the merits of Combi's, newly programmed, exquisite and totally usable Programs are seriously needed for the OASYS at this stage.


Kevin.

[t_tangent]

I was reading this thread and its a very interesting topic. Regarding this, is it possible for any of you guys to load up an example combi or 2 that shows what you mean exactly, particularly routing programs through one another. I am trying to understand how the combis can be used in different ways and as they say 'a picture is worth a thousand words', or should I say a combi is

Thanks

[Kevin Nolan]

Hi t_tangent,

I do not have any created examples yet, as and when I develop combi's I'll be delighted to share them.

However - unlike as suggested above - it is not possible for programs to interact in any way. A combi is simply a collection of programs with shared effects.

My approach would include, for example, creating a simple polysix program, lets say with a 2 octave up-down apreggio. Then, replicate that program say 8 times into different Program slots, each very similar to the original but perhaps with different cutoff frequencies, slightly different arpeggio variations or different LFO rates applied to the filter. You might also assign the same physical controller to different parameters in each program.

Then, layer all of those in a Combi and all assigned to one MIDI channel so thay all play form the keyboard (or single MIDI recorded track). Now configure the Combi elements (separate programs) to various volumes, pan position and insert effects; and experiment with this until you find something useful and playable. Changing the multi assigned physical contoller can also come into powerful action here.

so in this example you have, effectively, 8 Polysix's playing together with sync'd arpeggio variations and all playable from the same keyboard.

I could imagine similar Combis layering say 3-4 of the same STR-1 Program but with, say, the Vector Joystick affecting related but different parameters on each program, so that when played in a Combi, phenomenally sophisticated alterations to the sound could take place in performance.

Or consider several of the same Mod-7 Program with a PCM input, but again with slightly different Wave sequencing for on each, and again each modified slightly differently with just one physical controller.

Or imagine merging various articulations from one instrument set within EXs-3, all layered/keyboard zoned in a Combi as an incredible real-time performance orchestral brass instrument.

All fo these options are possible, but they all require lots of programming time. They involve replicating the same Program into multiple Program memory slots, each with an interesting but subtle variation or realtime control variation on the others, which when played via one MIDI channel within a Combi (whether layered or keyboard zoned) make in essence a hugely sophisticated 'super program'.

In fact I wish Korg would come up with a construct that would allow for OASYS to be exploited in this way, but where editing of each program was possible (unlike in a Combi) and which did not require saving multiple copies of conventional programs. But as is, Combi's like this can really reap the benifits of what the OASYS uniquely offers; but alas these are not programmed or sold.

Kevin.

[medusaland]

Hi Kevin and hi OASYANS,

I agree with you most... More Programs and more COMBIS! We from KARO are now working at the KARO Dance Composer. The KDC are only programs too compose your Dance tracks! But when I look on the Strings... There lifes and sounds much better in combis then in programs... There are a lot of performances in the combis with switches and so on For this sounds it`s a absolutly must have too have the combi mode!


The first thing is... We must have more free space for combis and programs!
Maybe with soft buttons too have the same x 4 That Is what I need mostly!

I also listen the new M3 sounds and there are a lot of very nice programs...

I also listen the arranger keyboard PA2X... O.K. I need no arranger, but when I listen the guitar mode... This Is also a must have for our Oasys!
The PA2X don`t have combis but one program have 16 oscilators! That is fantastic... Maybe Korg can make some update for the big O.

Best reagards,

KARO Sound Development

medusaland & EWBR

[Teh Mick]

You have my support ! I don't own a Korg OASYS, only a Korg Karma and I really don't understand why I will buy some KARMA-ified combi because I have no use for them.

I use COMBI mode to create my own layer and split and that's it.

[danatkorg]

I have been a little critical inthe past of Mod-7 programs, but I have found that many of them are better programmed that at first realised. Nevertheless, still virtually no Mod-7 programs are on a par with the hundreds of best SY77 and SY99 available.

Having never particularly loved the SY77 and SY99, and knowing the rather different character of the MOD-7, I imagine that the same could also be said in reverse.

I'd love to hear examples of some of these SY programs. mp3s?

- Dan

[ski]

I have been a little critical inthe past of Mod-7 programs, but I have found that many of them are better programmed that at first realised. Nevertheless, still virtually no Mod-7 programs are on a par with the hundreds of best SY77 and SY99 available. and I know that Mod-7 can go far beyond what they can offer. But because of the available programs, the SY77 and SY99 feature far more in my music than Mod-7 does.

Kevin,

I read your post with interest, but I don't think I understand what your point is, or what you're making comparisons to. For example, when you say MOD-7 sounds are better programmed than you first thought, my first thought is, "compared to what?" Or, "better than what"? And in what ways are they better-programmed than you originally realized? Curious to know.

And in terms of them being "on par" with SY77/99, what are the qualitative differences between them? Is it a stylistic/taste thing? Sound quality thing?

Also, in your other post, you wrote:

In fact I wish Korg would come up with a construct that would allow for OASYS to be exploited in this way, but where editing of each program was possible (unlike in a Combi) and which did not require saving multiple copies of conventional programs.

I think what you're talking about is akin to a "takes" feature in a DAW, where you have one track but multiple takes. Here, though, you'd have a single program with multiple versions all stored within the same patch name/number. Interesting idea, but AFAIA there's no synth on the market that has ever offered something like that. It would be an organizational nightmare!

BUT... if you want that kind of functionality, use COMBI mode. Think about it... who says that a COMBI can't be a collection of variations on the same patch (up to 16), each stored in a separate TIMBRE. You can use Tone Adjust to make many of the tweaks you'd ordinarily need, and then some. As you probably know, Tone Adjust is extremely powerful, and you could literally take a timpani sound and convert it into a gothic choir with little effort just by using Tone Adjust.

Having said that, what about the internal HD? Can't that aid you in storing your current collection of sounds, thus making available lots of room to store Program variations?