Styles - Creating, Modifying, and Third Party Styles.

[Lee]

As to the subject of creating new styles.. I can only speak for myself... but it's not that I am lazy about doing it, or I don't want to study the manual... I am very technical and can normally figure out how to do about anything. My business is computer programming (C, VB, etc) so I understand the tech side.

BUT I am not really a musician, that's why I like the arrangers vs plain synth's or Piano by itself. I read music and can play from sheet music I like fake books) , but I need the styles to sound good. Ensemble helps to as I basically play one note melody.

My problem is I am not musically trained or knowledgeable enough to know what I want in a style...so I am dependent on others for styles, be it Korg, others on the forums or hopefully some day much more third party styles.

I'll give you a great example... I also have a Tyros 2 (which I may be selling soon). Many , Many styles ( and complete performances) are available for the Yamaha's to play specific songs. Like--- Andrew LLoyd Webber songs as example. I was able to get a set of styles, STS's etc from Style Warehouse to get be ready to play many of the Webber songs I love. Just load them in and play.

Also Many other sets are available... So.. why is Korg arrangers left out of this great resource. Is it beacause not enogh demand is there? or is it that it is too hard to do? I don't know, maybe some on here does?

After having the PA for 6 weeks now, it is clearly more PRO, has more features I like, great keybed, great sound, and is far better buit, than my Tyos. I also like the touch screen, sliders, on-board programming tools etc. It is better to control external sound sources. The OS needs some tweeking.

BUT, I find myself sliding back to the Tyros 2 because of the great musical resources available free and to purchase as well.

So, on the positive side... how do we get those same musically talented folks to create the same kind of resources (styles, performances etc) for the new and powerful Korg Pa800/PA2???

Maybe if we contacted them and ask for the same things they do for Yamaha to be available in Korg?

From what I have learned so far on this forum, I think right here is superb musical talent... maybe we have to do it ourselves (the ones that are capable of it)?

It does not all have to be free, that would a decision of the person creating it, and the quality and completeness of the work.

To me the more I think of it... a superb (close to perfect) Yamaha to PA style conversion program set is the answer... Is there a reason it can not be done? Do we need documentation from Korg to do it or do we have what we need?

There are a lot of smart folks around here!

Thanks,
Lee

[Rob Sherratt]

Hi Lee,

I never had this problem on my Pa1x because I could use 3rd party software to manage the Pa1x format files. But since I "upgraded" to a Pa2x it has been a backward step. Similar problems exist for Pa1x owners who "upgraded" to a Pa800 or Pa500.

STATEMENT OF PROBLEM: I have hundreds of .SET folders containing many styles and sounds, some from www.korgpa.com, some from Sharp that I paid for, others developed by me; others developed by other musicians on this forum. Each .SET file can be loaded in isolation, but when you are playing live there is never enough time to load different .SET files, so the keyboard must be prepared and loaded with what you need in advance. The effort required to catalog and merge together a set of multiple styles and sounds that are useful to me in live performances is colossal - especially if user sounds or user samples or user drumkits are used in one or more of the user styles. Most users give up trying as soon as they discover that many Styles do not work after loading them. But the reason is because patches from Styles that link to user sounds become "broken" so that the styles play the wrong sounds. I know what I am doing, and I can fix this "broken patch number" problem "by hand" but each time I do it for a complete style library, it takes 8 to 10 hours or more and I just cannot afford to spare this amount of time each week on routine and mundane manual editing processes that should be automated in software.

SIMPLE STATEMENT OF REQUIREMENT: We need a mechanism to access the contents of multiple "incoming" .SET files, and combine and merge styles and sounds and samples into a number of "outgoing" .SET files useful for my live performances each week. The mechanism should be automated so that patch number mappings to user sounds are autom,atically renumbered, and so that no manual editing of patch numbers within Styles is required.

CONSEQUENCES OF THIS NOT BEING SOLVED: At the moment, I just use the built in styles and sounds on the Pa2x. I never use anyone elses .SET files on the Pa2x. I might just as well have a Pa50 instead. The Pa1x was great - I could use external software to merge .SET files. I've now switched to a Pa2x to get certain advantages including GTR mode styles, and now I find I can't manage a style library with any external software at all! So for me, the disadvantages of the Pa2x significantly outweigh the advantages, and I wish I had not sold my Pa1x.

Am I Sharp's minority 1%?
Are there any other Pa800 or Pa2x users who have this problem?

Best regards,
Rob

[Lika]

Hi men .

I had problem after PA1X pro os v3.00 ...
But I can say that - I bought from Milan the KAT2000 just for managing Performance and Styles (replacing and soo...) - and I used KAT2000 just for two times , I swear ...
And now I think will need it just for one or two times .... (but I want to have some soft like KAT2000 , you never don't know when you will need it)..
That's all ...

[Mickb]

Hi

For the last several years, I have built up an extensive library of styles. I started creating them on an is40. Without any problems, I have been able to use all the styles built up on various Keyboards, the is40 already mentioned as well as, in order, a PA80, another is50, PA1X, and a PA50.

At the moment, we still have the old faithful is40 as well as a PA800 and a PA1x pro.

I have always been able to manage the collection of styles on a PC without any problems until the PA800 came along.

The way we have the 'boards setup is to have the styles needed for a gig loaded into the PA1X and as many as possible in the PA50 as well ( we use it as a backup if there is any problem with the '1X) we also have a generic set of arrangements loaded into the is40 (just in case both PA's go down)



By sticking only to ROM sounds, we have loaded our styles into the PA800, however with each instrument, a lengthy process, as described by Rob, is needed to ensure that the styles are pointing to the correct Sounds. This has lead to the need of maintaining 3 seperate libraries of styles, 1 for each of the PA keyboards.


This is the kind of frustration that has lead to me attempting to come up with a PC librarian in order to automate this process and negating the need to maintain the 3 seperate databases of styles.


I don't consider myself lazy, or uninterested in reading the manuals, believe me I have spent many hours pouring over them down the years, however I do not consider the time spent manually editing a style I have created, just so it is compatible across the 3 keyboards we have in use, as productive.

for example for each style I create, I have to make it in PA80 format (suitable for the PA50) then load it into the PA1X and tweak the sounds, STS settings and effects to suit that keyboard, Then load it into the PA800 and do the same process again.


Would it not be easier, more efficient and more productive to create the style once, run it through some software which would be able to change, at a minimum, the pointers to the sounds I want.

By the way I'm not a keyboard player I play the trumpet, I am technically minded, I have built up a deep understanding of the PA series over the years, If I find it this frustrating, I can only imagine how daunting it feels for a person only just coming to the PA series, and I for one have never, or will never tell someone to RTFM.



Just my few cents on the subject

[BasariStudios]

Well when it comes to it YAMAHA still has the best...why SET???
Make each style an individual...it loads its own USER drums and sounds...
No matter where you LOAD it you just load one single style...thats all...
everything is there...why they never thought of something like that???

[Lee]

Rob, Mick...
Now I fully understand the issue. Thank You for explaining so well.
I SUPPORT YOU 100%

So, Korg made a mess for us.... and now they tell us they do not have time/resource to give us what we need to fix THEIR MESS!

I bet they did the compression to save $$$ on memory!
Fine, but they need to give us the data we need to uncompress the files (and re-compress to store back.)

This is BS!

IF Korg management understands exactly what you are saying and chooses to keep telling us they don't have resource to help us with this...THAT IS UNEXCEPTABLE... they need to WORK SOME NIGHTS like I do when I have a customer issue!

I am a new owner and have not gotten to the point to need what you are working on... BUT I WANT it someday soon. I will need to do the same things.

It's a shame to build a great piece of hardware (Pa800/PA2) and then blunder around with this.

I want to use this board in a very PRO way as time goes on... If I wanted to just play a nice arranger with only what's inside from factory... I would just get a $1500 Yamaha S900 and be done with it.... No I bought a PRO level arranger for all the advanced work station things I also want for $3600.

Rob, Mick... and others here too... you provide leading edge direction and support...for us... Korg needs to provide what you need as you have a lot of influence on customer satisfaction and SALES....

KORG... If you were not going to provide to us the info we need to properly access/process the files you should not have compessed them.

If you didn't until now understand the ramifications... OK, but now it's time to get it taken care of so we can progress.

I am but a small company... but you can bet this years profits... that if I had a customer problem... key users/supporters that were not happy... I would work nights and weekends to resolve it.

Lee

[keyboard]

Hi

By the way I'm not a keyboard player I play the trumpet, I am technically minded, I have built up a deep understanding of the PA series over the years, If I find it this frustrating, I can only imagine how daunting it feels for a person only just coming to the PA series, and I for one have never, or will never tell someone to RTFM.

Just my few cents on the subject

Mick..

You have just explained it perfectly...The PA Series Arrangers are at the top of the ladder but the knowledge required to create "a deep understanding ", as you put it wisely, is truly a daunting task. And Korg is not helping !!!!!

And I do find it a little dis-heartening when korg recognizes this but responds quite honestly in saying that there are no resources to help us because they are working on a "wow " addition that will "woo" us again...

Well.. I have to be honest ,myself,in saying that I do have second thoughts about my next major purchase..

Just some of my thoughts at large .....

[rikkisbears]

Hi Lee,
maybe it's just a case of supply & demand. Korgs & Yamaha's maybe have a different type of user base. You mentioned Stylewarehouse. They as well as Technote used to do the disks for Technics . Don't know about style warehouse, but technote branched out & started including the yamaha & roland range. Maybe due to Technics closing down a few years back. Can't remember if Stylewarehouse always had psr's & roland as part of their range.
Neither of them appear to have bothered creating styles for Korg. Maybe the demand just isn't there. I was told that Roland actually commissioned Technote to recreate their Technics range to Roland format. Whether it's true or not ( about commissioning, I don't know ) but, the Technics range does exist in Roland format.

I don't think 3rd party ( commercial) stylemakers will bother creating styles, unless they know they have a marketplace.

Just out of interest have you tried converting the song specific styles ie the andrew llyodd webber?
Do they actually use megavoices??
Do they actually use XG drum mapping or are they only GM??
If EMC is messing them up & they don't use megavoices & xg drum mapping, have you tried doing them midi to style?

I've had the odd surprising result with some conversions. I've got a number of old Glenn Miller styles in Technics format. Can be one of the worst formats to convert from. Technote used a lot of user sounds in their styles. Actually have the same disk in Roland format. I wanted to work out which format would convert better for my psr. Both were dreadful.
Tried a couple of them recently for my PA. The Technics conversion was almost useable as is.

Some conversions work way better than others.

The biggest problem with style sharing, ( I share the stuff I do put together) is what I may like as far as styles go, may not be of use to anyone else. Personally, if I've got no possible use for a style, I'm not going to convert & spend maybe hours tweaking..


best wishes
Rikki
[quote="Lee"]

[rikkisbears]

Hi Rob & Mick,
isn't what you're referring to moreso a problem for you guys, as gigging musicians, ie setting up your styles to suit your gigs ie
being able to manipulate styles, sounds etc & saving them as .sets more easily. I must admit I don't fully understand. Ignorantly blissful of what may lay ahead for me. haahaa

But why would the above criteria actually stop a company like Style Disk Warehouse from creating styles for the Korg.
http://www.stylediskwarehouse.com/roland.htm
From what I gather they create styles mainly for Yamaha, and then offer to "convert " to Roland format, or Ketron format etc

If a company wants to record styles from scratch, it can be done on the keyboard itself.

Maybe I misunderstood what Lee was asking, I sort of took it as to why 3rd Party style creators haven't gotten involved with korg keyboards to the same extent as for Yamaha's (& the old Technics range). Rolands I'm not sure about ??, and there's nothing much around for Ketrons either.


Lee
The beauty of the korg style is that it can be as simple or as complex as one wants. You can actually get away with only recording 1 CV for each of the variations & fills.
For variations & fills Setting the
Note Transposition Tables to i series &
& recording the tracks based on the maj7 Chord
means that the recorded notes would work equally well for either a Korg style or a yamaha style ( excluding megavoices).
For Intro's & Endings both keyboards require a major & minor versions when a chord progression is involved.
The big difference is in the drum mapping.
If the drums were recorded as GM, the main hassle could be the velocities of the drum notes.

I've converted a couple of my psr1500 styles, by simply changing the file extension to .mid chopping it up into individual styleparts in a sequencer
(or OMB software). Saving them as mids ie variation 1.mid variation 2 .mid etc & using the style creation Import function to put the style together . One of the styles didn't have drums , it was just a simple strings bass, arpeggiated piano & stringpads. I use it for a number of tunes, when I want to kid myself I'm playing piano. Takes me back to the good old days when I was actually trying learn haahaa. The style actually sounds better on my Korg than it did in the psr.
The other was a bit more complicated because of the drums. I split the drum track up in PT12. One drum instrument per track. Changed the velocities & corrected any wrong drums by transposing the track up or down to the correct drum type. Then chopped it up etc etc.
If you ever want to give styles a try, let me know.

best wishes
Rikki

[Mickb]

Hi Rikki

Hi Rob & Mick,
isn't what you're referring to moreso a problem for you guys, as gigging musicians

I feel it is not just a problem for gigging musicians, in fact I feel it could lead to more trouble for the casual user than someone who is using the keyboard, loading and unloading SETs constantly.

Let's take an example, In your case, you take great joy and pleasure in creating styles. after spending a long time on this task, getting the right Drum beats, adding the various acc tracks, picking the best programs on your keyboard to get the exact sounds you require. You then upload it to share it with others. But suddenly you get people complaining that after they loaded your .SET into their keyboard it hung up!!!! or another scenario is that some of their other styles have now changed the programs that they are using!!!

WHY?? WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY KEYBOARD????? IS THERE A VIRUS IN YOUR SET?????

These could be some of the questions getting fired at you, not pleasant, ( I know how it feels, this example has happened to me with .SETS I have loaded on a keyboard the abuse I got was not pleasant

Ok now, Why did this happen? For one reason, On one of the tracks, I used a program I had customised and saved to a user bank, It was not on the other keyboard, Thats why I only use factory ROM sounds for styles I know will be shared. another reason was on the keyboard I uploaded it to, the user had over written a factory sound with a custom one.

Ok one solution would be to supply any custom sound in the .SET, but how can you control which user bank this sound will be loaded to? how can you be sure that this sound will not overwrite one the user has already been using for other styles? (This is the reason for the styles mentioned in the example changing the programs they are using)

Now in order to prevent this happening, it would be handy to have a utility on the PC which could check the .SET, and suggest a change for non standard program locations, allow you to pick the user bank to load this program to and in a single batch job, re write every part of the style file which refers to this program instead of having to manually edit it on the keyboard, a time consuming and frustrating process.

But why would the above criteria actually stop a company like Style Disk Warehouse from creating styles for the Korg.

Possibly because the don't know the file format and are unable to write styles to disk in Korg format

[rikkisbears]

Hi Mick ,
thank you for the very detailed explanation, it's finally sunk thru what you're on about..

I only ever share styles with rom sounds & normally only the 1 style in a set. I don't include anything else. Deep down I must have been aware of potential problems.

I only ever did one style where I partially modified a drumkit to suit XG drum mapping. Then I got nervous about people having to load the kit & maybe overwriting a kit of their own. Then had to write a warning" not to load" if they had their own user drumsets etc etc Decided wasn't worth it. Pretty much put to bed the idea of putting together some xg mapped drumkits for my psr conversions..

I always do a Save All, before loading a someone else's .set's or making any major changes. .
The file system can be tricky for New Korg owners especially changing from just say a psr, where things work so differently.

best wishes
Rikki


[quote="Mickb"]Hi Rikki

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