16 or 24 bit

[mezzojammer]

Okay, for some reason my Visio is on the fritz so I will just have to explain.

You won't use digital cable to record out of the left/right and 1-4 individual outs. Those are analog signals and you would use standard 1/4" jacks to record that audio.

The Triton Extreme can record digital at 48,000khz not anything higher. So, if you use digital cables - yes you will get perfect digital sound but you can't record at higher resolutions. That would be your S/P DIF.

Page 15 the operation guide gives you a pretty good diagram of how to hook things up. One change to that diagram is, if you want to run your Left/Right and 1-4 individual outs to dsp mixer (Motu/Digidesign/Mackie Onyx/etc.) you can do that and record analag signals to your computer. These dsp mixers will convert the analog audio to digital audio for you in any resolution you pick (for me 96khz at 24 bit).

Also, the S/P DIF connecters on the Extreme are toslink (or lightpipe) where most of the other hardware on the market is coaxial. You might have to find a converter to convert to coaxial depending on the hardwar you want to wire the Extreme to.

ok Im still not sure what you mean. My set up is triton extreme master board, Radias-R, X3, 2 x Emu sound expanders. I have a pair of digital coaxial cables. My mixer which all my gear is plugged into is a behringer Xenyx 1832 FX. What is DSP?
I use cubase to record.
Now you know this, can you say that I can make use of this pair of digital coaxial cables by routing them from my PC soundcards outs to the ins of the behringer mixer? Is this correct? so if I do this then
the final mix will be 24/96 and not 16 bit.

[RVNOak]

ok Im still not sure what you mean. My set up is triton extreme master board, Radias-R, X3, 2 x Emu sound expanders. I have a pair of digital coaxial cables. My mixer which all my gear is plugged into is a behringer Xenyx 1832 FX. What is DSP?
I use cubase to record.
Now you know this, can you say that I can make use of this pair of digital coaxial cables by routing them from my PC soundcards outs to the ins of the behringer mixer? Is this correct? so if I do this then
the final mix will be 24/96 and not 16 bit.

DSP stands for Digital Signal Processor.

On page 16 of your user manual for the Behringer Xenyx 1832 FX (which I downloaded here: http://www.behringer.com/1832FX/index.cfm?lang=ENG), You do have DSP at 24 bit (Sigma Delta which is the converter) but only at 40khz. That is less than CD quality and I don't think the Behringer mixer is capable of 96khz. I think this mixer wasn't made for recording as it was more made for live applications or I'm missing something. What's more, it looks like there is a little box with a usb that you hook up your coaxial/digital to and then it is sent to the computer via usb. If you lookat at Presonus firebox, Mackie Onyx 400F, Digidesign, etc. You will see a difference. Most of these applications use firewire as they can transmit data much faster.

The connections should be from your DSP (in your case Behringer mixer) out to your soundcard in (in your case, USB - most DSP's are done with firewire as the connection is much faster and the latency is easier controlled. Though, there are other outboard DSP mixers that USB). You would use Cubase as your software mixer to process your recorded sounds for a recorded audio mixdown. Meaning, if you have x amount of tracks, you would mix them individually so they would all sound good together and then convert them to a stereo .wav file or mp3.

[mezzojammer]

ok Im still not sure what you mean. My set up is triton extreme master board, Radias-R, X3, 2 x Emu sound expanders. I have a pair of digital coaxial cables. My mixer which all my gear is plugged into is a behringer Xenyx 1832 FX. What is DSP?
I use cubase to record.
Now you know this, can you say that I can make use of this pair of digital coaxial cables by routing them from my PC soundcards outs to the ins of the behringer mixer? Is this correct? so if I do this then
the final mix will be 24/96 and not 16 bit.

DSP stands for Digital Signal Processor.

On page 16 of your user manual for the Behringer Xenyx 1832 FX (which I downloaded here: http://www.behringer.com/1832FX/index.cfm?lang=ENG), You do have DSP at 24 bit (Sigma Delta which is the converter) but only at 40khz. That is less than CD quality and I don't think the Behringer mixer is capable of 96khz. I think this mixer wasn't made for recording as it was more made for live applications or I'm missing something. What's more, it looks like there is a little box with a usb that you hook up your coaxial/digital to and then it is sent to the computer via usb. If you lookat at Presonus firebox, Mackie Onyx 400F, Digidesign, etc. You will see a difference. Most of these applications use firewire as they can transmit data much faster.

The connections should be from your DSP (in your case Behringer mixer) out to your soundcard in (in your case, USB - most DSP's are done with firewire as the connection is much faster and the latency is easier controlled. Though, there are other outboard DSP mixers that USB). You would use Cubase as your software mixer to process your recorded sounds for a recorded audio mixdown. Meaning, if you have x amount of tracks, you would mix them individually so they would all sound good together and then convert them to a stereo .wav file or mp3.

Thanks for this I must confess I knew very little about which mixer to purchase other than I needed so many inputs for it (and cost was an issue aswell)
I have emailed behringer to clarify the 40khz sampling rate and recommended use for this xenyx mixer.
If the worst comes to the worst and I have to purchase another mixer - then what do you suggest? Bearing in mind its got to have at least 18 inputs (I sometimes record guitar aswell), and be as compact as possible as I have limited space. This behringer has a load of FX on it but Im not sure I would have made use of them anyway so I suppose having onboard FX isnt vital as I can use cubase plug ins.
Cost is an issue aswell I dont want to be spending a lot PLEASE!
If I decide to keep this mixer and just use the analog connections (as its set up now) and not DSP then surely I can still record at 16 bit CD quality??

[RVNOak]

Are you recording 18 tracks at once or are you needing 18 inputs for live use?

I have a 20 channel mixer I use live and for recording and the studio I have a rackmount dsp mixer (Mackie Onyx 400F) which has 10 ins and 10 outs. Without shelling out major cash (like about $5,000 for the Mackie digital mixing boards), I don't think you can have the best of both worlds in one unit. Keep your behringer and upgrade when you are making money and consider a rackmount dps unit for recording. You will rarely record more than 10 tracks at once anyway.

Let me know as I might be able to help but - have you looked at musiciansfriend.com, musiciansbuy.com, samash.com, www.zzounds.com or guitarcenter.com? I do a ton of research every time I'm about to buy something new whether I know about it or not.

[mezzojammer]

Are you recording 18 tracks at once or are you needing 18 inputs for live use?

I have a 20 channel mixer I use live and for recording and the studio I have a rackmount dsp mixer (Mackie Onyx 400F) which has 10 ins and 10 outs. Without shelling out major cash (like about $5,000 for the Mackie digital mixing boards), I don't think you can have the best of both worlds in one unit. Keep your behringer and upgrade when you are making money and consider a rackmount dps unit for recording. You will rarely record more than 10 tracks at once anyway.

Let me know as I might be able to help but - have you looked at musiciansfriend.com, musiciansbuy.com, samash.com, www.zzounds.com or guitarcenter.com? I do a ton of research every time I'm about to buy something new whether I know about it or not.

I am NOT recording 18 inputs at once. This mixer is solely for recording (mainly my outboard gear) within cubase SE3 and not live use.
I am intending to play live at a later date but I will be buying a seperate mixer for that with less inputs as I wont be using all my synth equipment live.
This mixer is still capable of CD quality 16 bit though isnt it?

[mezzojammer]

I forgot to mention that I am hoping to have some music accepted as library music at some point(music for Adverts etc). However Ive read that they often specify that the music is in 24/96 khz format. How am I going to get round this if Ive recorded in 16 bit? Can it be converted?

[RVNOak]

It can but not advisable. It will still have only the bits of 16bit recording and now you are adding extra particles in the digital realm that would be experienced as hiss and other sound anomolies. It's best to re record and do it now before your library gets too big.

You'll hate me for saying this while you are re recording but will thank me later.

[mezzojammer]

It can but not advisable. It will still have only the bits of 16bit recording and now you are adding extra particles in the digital realm that would be experienced as hiss and other sound anomolies. It's best to re record and do it now before your library gets too big.

You'll hate me for saying this while you are re recording but will thank me later.

DSP is to do with FX right? If I connect the behringer via the usb U control to my PC, can I not record in 24/96?. Im NOT intending to use the onboard FX with this mixer.

reply from behringer:

The Xenyx 1832FX was conceived for both live and recording purposes. I advice you to first try out the effects and then decide if you are able to work with the effects processor or if you want to go for external effects. The effects processor is indeed not comparable wiht an outboard effects processor, to apply a full professional 24 Bit / 96 kHz Effects porcessor would just be too expensive and we would have had to make the desks housing far bigger.

If you think you can (or will) not work with the internal effects processor, you can use VST-Effects in Cubase (which is the most flexible solution, as there are loads of free plugins and also very expensive high quality ones available, as well as anything in between) during or after the recording or go for an external effects processor (such as our DSP2024P).

We hope that we have been able to help you with this information.

Best regards,

Your BEHRINGER Customer Support Teambehringer.

[RVNOak]

No.

The DSP is a Digital Signal Processor. It is limited by the convertors. So, if your convertors are incapable of converting to a higher resolution then your DSP can only process what is converted. The idea behind the DSP is that it takes a major load off the CPU of your computer. It is dedicated to only processing the Digital Signal. That is why effect units, recording interfaces and preamps that deal in the digital realm have their own dedicated DSP.

For instance, I have the Kurzweil Mangler, the Kurzweil Rumor, the Sampson S-Com 4 and a BassPOD and each one has their own DSP to process the signal before it sends that signal to it's destination. The reason Behringer mentioned VST's is because those are digital from the start where as my bass is analog and must be converted to digital when I record.

So, the FX unit on your Behringer is only capable of converting what the convertors are rated at and the DSP will process those at that resolution. The reason he said you should first try out the effects and then decide is because most recording are recorded dry (without effects). You add the effects only as needed to help the mixdown of all your tracks playing together. This is how mixing engineers and mastering engineers keep that valued headroom for the final cut so they can push up the volume to industry standard CD's. Effects add a lot of noise to recordings and recording with effects is a recipe for disaster (unless you are recording a sample to be triggered for live use). You can go for an external effects processor but I would advise looking for a recording interface and using the Cubase plug-ins for your effects. Use the Behringer mixer for live use (though, I will be honest, I don't trust Behringer reliability at all - but that's just me).

You can get some pretty decent recording interfaces for good prices. You won't be able to record 18+ tracks unless you want to shell out about a grand but, in recording, you don't need to record all those tracks at once. You can record one or two tracks at a time and then add them all together and sync them. I am capable of recording 10 tracks at once but I usually only record one at a time.

If you do go with an external effects processor, make sure you can record dry and then apply that effect later after you have recorded the track. My BassPOD can do this and it's one of the reasons I got it.

[mezzojammer]

No.

The DSP is a Digital Signal Processor. It is limited by the convertors. So, if your convertors are incapable of converting to a higher resolution then your DSP can only process what is converted. The idea behind the DSP is that it takes a major load off the CPU of your computer. It is dedicated to only processing the Digital Signal. That is why effect units, recording interfaces and preamps that deal in the digital realm have their own dedicated DSP.

For instance, I have the Kurzweil Mangler, the Kurzweil Rumor, the Sampson S-Com 4 and a BassPOD and each one has their own DSP to process the signal before it sends that signal to it's destination. The reason Behringer mentioned VST's is because those are digital from the start where as my bass is analog and must be converted to digital when I record.

So, the FX unit on your Behringer is only capable of converting what the convertors are rated at and the DSP will process those at that resolution. The reason he said you should first try out the effects and then decide is because most recording are recorded dry (without effects). You add the effects only as needed to help the mixdown of all your tracks playing together. This is how mixing engineers and mastering engineers keep that valued headroom for the final cut so they can push up the volume to industry standard CD's. Effects add a lot of noise to recordings and recording with effects is a recipe for disaster (unless you are recording a sample to be triggered for live use). You can go for an external effects processor but I would advise looking for a recording interface and using the Cubase plug-ins for your effects. Use the Behringer mixer for live use (though, I will be honest, I don't trust Behringer reliability at all - but that's just me).

You can get some pretty decent recording interfaces for good prices. You won't be able to record 18+ tracks unless you want to shell out about a grand but, in recording, you don't need to record all those tracks at once. You can record one or two tracks at a time and then add them all together and sync them. I am capable of recording 10 tracks at once but I usually only record one at a time.

If you do go with an external effects processor, make sure you can record dry and then apply that effect later after you have recorded the track. My BassPOD can do this and it's one of the reasons I got it.

Ive now got a headache about this. I dont want to buy an external fx processor, as I had a lexicon before which I never used and sold it. Im perfectly happy with triton extreme fx etc and cubase plug in Fx. Its more than enough!
Im in the UK so prices are high for equipment. Ive had a quick search and cant find a lot. is that £1000 pounds sterling or dollars?
I wouldnt want to spend more than £400 ($800). Id also need an interface/mixer with enough inputs to plug in 5 keyboards/modules (so 5 pairs of stereo inputs, and a couple if inputs spare should I get anything else and for electric guitar. I dont want to be plugging and unplugging equipment!
rackmount would be good to save space. Ive contacted soundslive for their advice and will take a look at thomann aswell.
I'll more than likely have to sell this behringer as its too big to be used live.

[mezzojammer]

After trawling through lots of expensive stuff, discovered this ideally priced item which seems very suitable for my set up




http://www.andertons.co.uk/acatalog/inf ... um=Froogle

[xpander]

Also, make sure you record at low levels. Recording hot will make any resolution absolutely and completely worthless. If you record hot - may as well record in 4bit to a palm pilot.

Interesting topic with good advice, but I have to disagree with this statement.

Basically you'd always want to get as hot levels as possible without clipping, while recording. That's what getting the best possible signal-to-noise ratio is all about, no matter what bit rate you'll be doing it.

However, and this is the difference, using 24 bits you can afford leaving the levels LOWER THAN in 16 bits, without much (if any) loss in the available headroom. In other words, you don't have to try and maintain near clipping levels to get the same or better headroom than with 16 bits.

This certainly doesn't mean you should purposedly record at LOW levels, unless you want to waste all the headroom 24 bits would give to you....only that you don't have to push so far to get good results.

I'm not talking about heavily compressed sources recorded at hot levels, though. Squished to death signals won't necessarily benefit from 24 bits, but with higher bit rate you wouldn't even have to make square sausages to start with....unless you have to.

[RVNOak]

I offer you 13 pages of comment on exactly where the recording levels should be. Three very well established studios have replied to many questions on this subject:

http://studio-central.com/phpbb/viewtop ... 30&t=34078

Hot as possible without clipping was in the old days of using tape. With Digital it's quite a different story. What encouraged me was when I called Massive Mastering (they are about 12 miles from my location) and the guy told me he could push my tracks to commercial volumes even if my meters were on average of -24 or even -30dBFS!!!

When I say low levels, I don't mean in any way to record and barely track on the meters. Anyway, I'll let you read.

[xpander]

Hot as possible without clipping was in the old days of using tape. With Digital it's quite a different story.

Actually hot AND clipping was the way of the tape in many cases. Still is for some, if that "warm" effect is wanted.

Digital is different in that you don't want the clipping, ever. But I thought that we were talking about 16 bit vs 24 bit, which is a little bit different matter within digital domain itself, not before it in analog world?

When I say low levels, I don't mean in any way to record and barely track on the meters.

And THIS is exactly what I also meant, see, we are on the same page after all. You don't have to push near clipping, but why on earth waste it all by too low levels? I quess it's a matter of definitions, and for me low means easily "too low", being used to average gear and trying to get best out of it.

Thanks for the suggested reading. Unfortunately that specific topic jumps from the pre-amp (output) levels to recording levels before and after the AD and whatnot. Using various level references also, too confusing for my simple mind. I do have even my own ever expanding archives, collected and almost religiously studied since about -95 (about digital), so I have done "some" reading already.

--

I went and checked couple of my 16 bit recordings from around 2000-2001 to see how I did it back then, still "pushing it for every single bit" while recording (NOT mixing nor mastering, mind you). Peaks were around -15dB, average of course lower. This should give some idea about my stand in the matter.

[mezzojammer]

hi
you got sidetracked with xpander - can you answer my last two posts? especially what you think of the edirol interface as this seems very good for the money?