Korg Forums

Just out of curiosity:

Does anyone here with insights in advanced programming know how long it takes to prepare a new EXi for example, or a system update?.. (I'm not trying to evoke yet another discussion about possible updates for the Oasys, this is just pure curiosity!)

Are we talking about two guys working their butts of for two weeks, or 15 people over three months?..

I realise that Korg won't tell us how many man hours they've invested in the Oasys, but I'm really curious how large a project like the MOD-7, or an M3 v2.0 update really is..

Sure, nobody knows the answer, but there seem to be many members here with great knowledge of the programming world.

Thanks.

I worked in Sun Microsystems a while back and it was amazing to see how few people were involved in any given development project. For example - only several hundred people were (and probably still are) developing Solaris, the most stable operating system there is.

A wild guess - given that Korg in total only employ a few hundred people in total, I'd say development teams are highly skilled and very small. I could imagine only 3-5 developers for all of OASYS. In Moog, from what I've been able to determine, there is only one developer on the Moog Little Phatty.

So I'd say MOD-7 (and associated OS release), for example, was perhaps developed with a team of, say, one project leader, three developers and one or two test engineers. I could imagine the design, development and release of MOD-7 taking 9 months to a year.

These are wild guesses - but MOD-7 is far from trivial - it is a huggely sophisticated, stable and robust piece of software capable of being reconfigured in a modular way, and hence dealing with all sorts of crazy feedback scenarios and inputs from God knows where. So its not trivian by any means.

I'f you're hinting at why M3 V2.0 detracts from OASYS development - if the US are doing much of the M3 coding, then it may well be a small operation in the US and hence all hands are on deck for M3, leaving OASYS idle for that time.


When you think about it - what the likes of Roland, Korg and Yamaha do is stunning - every few years, with just dozens of people involved, they:

- invent, code and release numerous new (music) operating systems
- invent new synthesis engines, effects, sequencers....
- invent develop and release entirely new hardware that must meet our griping standards and be robust enough for the likes of Jordan Rudes and Stevie Wonder to be satasfied
- sample thousands of instruments to stunning quality.
- create thousands of stunning programs

I don't know how they do it. When I worked in Sun, the total corporate work force went form 16,000 to 44,000 in three years - releasing (admittedly a wide range) of white boxes, generic processors and operating systems (and Sun are not really an applications company); while less people in Yamaha had to do all of the above synthesis stuff mentioned, all their piano stuff, all of their digital mixers, home keyboards and every instrument in the orchestra - producing entirely new ranges every year or two.

In truth I'd say those working in the synthesizer field like Korg and co. balk at out grievances - what they have to do to get their product out the door beggars belief. I would not work in that industry for love nor money - it's one tough, tough industry.

Kevin.

Kevin,

Thanks for your informed reply!

I too would have guessed at 5 people or so working on any given EXi, but 7 months to one year?!! I would never have guessed that!...

And here I sit and wonder why they don't hand out new EXi:s every second month...

Am I naive in thinking that "porting" some of the features of the new M3 v2.0 update to the Oasys is a somewhat lesser undertaking?..

Don't forget a beta testing group as well.

curvebender wrote:Kevin,

Thanks for your informed reply!

I too would have guessed at 5 people or so working on any given EXi, but 7 months to one year?!! I would never have guessed that!...

And here I sit and wonder why they don't hand out new EXi:s every second month...

Am I naive in thinking that "porting" some of the features of the new M3 v2.0 update to the Oasys is a somewhat lesser undertaking?..

Well I am just guessing here and could be completely wrong. Perhaps Korg engineers have huge software libraries and can build software in an visual object environment similar to MAX/MSP (or NI Reacktor), reducing development time. Or - perhaps they're just able enough to design and develop really quickly (with long working days). I'm guessing how long MOD-7 took; but it definitely wouldn't have been trivial to get it working that well and would surely have been a several month effort at least, considering other OS bug fixes and integration of Karma 2.

That said - look at Stephen Kay - and I'll stand corrected on this by those more in the know - but it looks increasingly to me that he has designed and developed all Karma software for all platforms completely on his own; maintains Karma-Lab and developed all his documentation, tutorials, videos and runs his business single handed. So when you're that talented anything is possible.

No idea about porting times - actually Daz might have something to say on this. My gut instinct is again that it's not trivial. If memory serves there was mention on this forum (I think by Sina after meeting DAN, Jerry and STephen at NAMM) that modifying OASYS's sequencer would require a lot of surgery deep into the OS. So any porting of M3's latest features again might not be trivial.

I personally do not expect any of M3's new sequencer features to ever materialise on OASYS and am not waiting for them - I believe the user base is too small - whatever the effort involved - for Korg to do it at this stage. I realise that's an extremely unpopular thing to say; and is purely my opinion with no basis other than gut feeling on the matter. Interesting comments from Jerry recently perhaps suggest otherwise. I hope I'm wrong and we get these improvements; but I'm not personally banking on them being ported anytime soon.

Kevin.

If we were ever to have the "drag & drop"-feature in the Oasys, does that mean that every single EXi has to be re-written, or is it something done on a lower level, such as the OS?...

curvebender wrote: Am I naive in thinking that "porting" some of the features of the new M3 v2.0 update to the Oasys is a somewhat lesser undertaking?..

As stated, it would be difficult to know.

Its true, however, that having done it first for the M3, surely will make it easier to port it to the OASYS, as they have now the desing and concept of how it might be, and even the way to do it.

As long as it could be done, especially if the OS includes of something else or not, it would take some time, as long as Korg has its resources on it yet, according to Jerry´s comments.

Hoover's.com reports a total of 330 employees in year 2001 for Korg Inc. (Japan) and 100 emplyees for Korg USA, a subsidiary with $100 mil sales in 2007.

My guess is production/assembly is made by thirdy parts.
Most of the people should be in projects-engineering/accounting/sales.

These datas do not consider free lance engineers/developer/musicians.

I am not an expert but I believe that a new EXi, involves the partecipation of the whole company's effort.
Budgeting, engineering, developing, programming, marketing.............

curvebender wrote:If we were ever to have the "drag & drop"-feature in the Oasys, does that mean that every single EXi has to be re-written, or is it something done on a lower level, such as the OS?...

Good question.

AFAIK, it has more to do with the screen operativity.

Korg would have to change the way the TouchScreen operates on certain parameters, as are general grapchical faders and knobs, or the ones included it the new Sequencer edit screens.

To quote Korg in this regard:

Touch –more TouchView
As if it wasn’t cool enough, the M3 XPanded’s color TouchView display now does even more. In
the Sequencer and Combi modes, each track features a velocity meter, making it easy to quickly
see which tracks/timbres are playing, and which one is playing which part. On screen knobs and
sliders can by operated by simply touching one and dragging it to the correct value – a convenient
time-saver! This is the same intuitive touch/drag operation featured in the new editing pages.

Personally, I think it was a smart move to implement this feature once more in its touchscreens: it defintely improves the operativity of an interface as intuitive as it is the one found in Korg keyboards; not offered by Yamaha and Roland counterparts, it will be more evident now than ever as it has more features to it than just touch a parameter: It can be modified by touching it.
It adds more value and a new dimension to the TouchView concept. Also, it will do some other brands interface pale in comparison, once more.

I loved this "drag and drop" feature on graphical faders and knobs on my beloved Trinity, I used it a lot.
I missed it so much when Korg decided not to implement this in the Triton series, but again, it has a lot more sense to have it back now with the new parameters found in the M3 Derived Sequencer Editing.

Personally, I would be thrilled if this kind of operativity could be implemented in the OASYS generous touchscreen, with its many parameters accesed in once single screen. The OASYS screen is a luxury one to have compared to other workstions, and with a feature like this, would make it be far ahead of the rest and It would make the operations more easy for many.

I loved this "drag and drop" feature on graphical faders and knobs on my beloved Trinity, and used it a lot.

I had no idea that the Trinity had this feature. Interesting that they dropped it on later workstations..

The Roland V-Synth has it, and it really makes editing a whole lot easier.

On the M3, does it include changing values that are not knobs or sliders? You know, those parameters that have a value in a highlighted box. If one could touch one of those and simply drag up/down or left/right, editing would speed up big time!

As it is now, you almost have to resort to two-hand editing: one hand chooses the parameter whose value is to be changed, and the other has to be either on the left side (value slider or up/down knobs) or on the right side (value dial or numeric keypad).

Well, let's hope for the best!

curvebender wrote:As it is now, you almost have to resort to two-hand editing: one hand chooses the parameter whose value is to be changed, and the other has to be either on the left side (value slider or up/down knobs) or on the right side (value dial or numeric keypad).

In fact I quite like the two handed editing method, it's really fast. And I use Karma to play the instrument for me while editing.
I wish all the data entry controllers were on the same side of the screen though.

But I welcome the drag edit feature too, I'm sure I find many uses for it.

I have a question related to that. My fingers create a lot of friction on the screen and especially on the Ribbon Controller. Do others have this problem, and what could be done about it? Silicone spray, baby powder, Sinanju finger board practice?

curvebender wrote:

I loved this "drag and drop" feature on graphical faders and knobs on my beloved Trinity, and used it a lot.

I had no idea that the Trinity had this feature. Interesting that they dropped it on later workstations..

The Roland V-Synth has it, and it really makes editing a whole lot easier.

Yes, once you try this feature you realize it is extremely useful, and makes the editing process a lot easier for certain parameters and operations.

On the M3, does it include changing values that are not knobs or sliders? You know, those parameters that have a value in a highlighted box. If one could touch one of those and simply drag up/down or left/right, editing would speed up big time!

AFAIK, its not the case.

But again, as the M3 implemented new features like the Derived Sequencer Editing, it may work as well with those other parameters.
Maybe someone in the know, or an M3 user, could tell us more.