Why people buy and then turn around and sell their Oasys? :(

[bchurch]

bchurch,

Exactly my point in my post above.

Watch out or SKI will skewer you too saying that the O is too hard for the wannabees famous in 3 minutes.

Ken

thanks Ken
i'll try to play nice
but i usually dont play well with others

B

[Daz]

they feel that the O is a one button wonder. just watch peoples eyes in the store when you hit the Karma button. It's a great selling point but reality sinks in when they get the thing home. These people find that you have to 'work' to get the sounds you want. not all the presets are in your genre. ( of cousre this is so the O appeals to a larger customer base)
they quickly run through the presets in their type of music and find they they want more. BUT they are too lazy or busy to delve into a manual to make more sounds they want. so they sell the O and go and buy another board that has more sounds they use as a preset.

That sounds about right to me. I think some folks have mistaken it for an arranger keyboard, due to hearing "insta-genesis" when playing the combis

There seems to be quite a lot of misunderstanding and lack of appreciation for the capabilities of the Oasys. Just reading posts on this forum in the last few months has demonstrated that. It constantly surprises me.

Daz.

[bchurch]

There seems to be quite a lot of misunderstanding and lack of appreciation for the capabilities of the Oasys. Just reading posts on this forum in the last few months has demonstrated that. It constantly surprises me.

Daz.

I too am amazed at what i've been reading. Since i'm new here you can shoot me if i you want but here is what i've seen in my short time in this forum:

Alot of people talk about hitting M1 or DX7 sales numbers. Sorry folks it aint gonna happen. The DX7 was a new way to make sounds that no one at the time had thought of. 'Here's a world of new sounds. smaller than carrying a B3, leslie and Rhodes Piano. Cheaper too'.....Hell yes it sold.

When the M1 came out i was working in a music store. Man the hype and propoganda. every Keyboard, Mix, Electronic Musician magazine had a full page add about it. Korg had a 'new' idea and they knew it. Workstation. everything in one box. studio on the stand. didnt have to hook up anything to MIDI to get it to record your ideas. ok...BUT look at the time it came out... MIDI was introduced in the 80's. Keyboards of the time only had patches ( 8 banks with 8 patches each) multitimbral was a relatively new function. I wont even go into what sequencers were like. many of you that have been around know what i'm talking about. M1 had drum sounds.....not many keyboards had drum sounds mapped out on your keyboard (drum machines were seperate boxes then) YOU could play drums and record them to the sequencer then lay down pads, leads everything. ONE keyboard to do it all. the FIRST workstation. it sold . but i dont think IMHO that anything will sell to the extent of the M1. The M1 was Revolutionary. but the O and other's like it are only Evolutionary. meaning they are basically that same idea with a bunch of updates. And after that first workstation came out.....EVERYBODY made workstations.

But now we have technology everywhere. There is more computing power in my son's toy than the first keyboards had. We as consumers are no longer Wowed when we see something new. Soft-syths, DAWs, plug-ins all these things are common place now. ( for those old enough to remember, when the 8mm film camera came out everyone turned into a filmmaker. the same thing has happend in the music area. everybody has a computer that they can make music on) The idea that the O is Open Architechture. Never have to upgrade. last keyboard you have to buy. That is a wonderful concept. This too is revolutionary. But i dont think alot of people seeing it as that. They see the O as just another workstation. Well it aint...not buy a long shot. The depth of the O has not been reached. Hence the Open in the name oasys. i just think that people are blinded by everything else and complacent in what a workstation should be. The O should not even be called a workstation. It's a complete studio. A few people i know saw the O but said that their computer does everything for them. Yes it is true. But why work with a mouse when you can work with knobs and sliders and a touch screen.
But alot of people just pull up a sample and play it in their DAW. why make sounds when you can buy them premade or just download them? for the sheer fun of saying 'hey i made this...all of it!' not just some sample library that you picked sounds and arranged.

The OASYS was the end of buy-a-new-keyboard-every-year-or-two. Some people think that just because it looks like last years model nothing changes inside. have you noticed the changes in the O from 2005 to now? It aint the same board at all. But tell that to the guy that's buying one and saw the same board last year and 'it still looks the same, 'but this thing here is new....its a new color....this wasnt here last time.....it's gotta be the best!' Horse-pucky

Remember when you bought that 'new' computer? how long did it take for it to be the old outdated computer? about a week and a half. the general music store frequenter (that's as politically correct as i can get) see's the same keyboard that he saw last year and thinks the same thing 'oh it's outdated.' And sales people are always going to push new stuff. I know. i was a keyboard salesman. 'here look at this! it blows all the other stuff away.' so what the O looks old...but it aint. who cares if they have something new? ( M3 using the O's synth engine) We have the machine to last into infinity with hardware and software upgrades we never have to buy another one. ( Thank God. cause i used up all my allowance for 10 years buying this one!)

What needs to happen is a onslaught of hype built up about the O. Make everyone who plays music know what it is. 'yes it looks like last years model but this aint your daddy's keyboard'. That's the thing we have to battle. with the Open arch. there is no last year's model. all of them are this years, next years any year in the future. Hey guys at Korg if O is your flagship, say so. Make everyone know it is. when someone says OASYS make then think of KORG and not some pond with palm trees around it. You want some ideas to add to it? ok here's one......Use a Wii Remote to be able to adjust any midi value with the flick of your wrist. In real-time, live situations.

I dont care what upgrades have been done for the M3. I know the guys at KORG have been busy with other projects. I know you do what your bosses say. And they do what the people with the money say. well make the people with the money want the O. simple as that. Dont use a button on karma to glaze the buyers eyes over. Talk about real world potential. Dig a little deeper and let people know this aint just a workstation.
And this goes for everyone Not just the guys at Korg. Spread the word.

Ok guys i'm sorry. i ran my mouth, got off the thread and just rambled
thanks for putting up with the old fat kid. i remember when Pro tools meant is was made by craftsman or snap-on and plug-ins weren't nothing but air fresheners.
peace

[Daz]

Well said

[Davidb]

Great post, Bchurch!

[EJ2]

Right on!!!

[Kevin Nolan]

I suppose this is not going to be a surprise - but I don't agree with much of bchurch's post. Of course there is no stronger advocate than myself for OASYS, and I am very satisfied with its current feature set. But I am frustrated by the apparent lack of interest (both on this forum and in the wider community) in engaging in questions regarding the general status and direction of keyboard technology in particular. It’s still a job not complete. OASYS is special and currently unique, so if you're going to ask big questions, then they should surely include OASYS and what it has to say in the greater scheme?

So I feel it IS valid to ask about the 'big picture' of OASYS's legacy; whether it will lead to new developments, and whether they can be revolutionary. I utterly reject the notion that M1 and DX7 level sales can not be reached again - those past instruments were sold within a far poorer world; while guitars and pianos still sell in their millions. Denying this possibility is akin to Microsoft denying the future clout of Google, for example; and in my view is simply unimaginative. Somebody will come up with the next instrument to sell in DX7 numbers – mark my words.


Furthermore, while the DX7 and M1 were revolutionary in providing cheap yet reliable and sought after features (DX7 with a useful acoustic like sound set and M1 with PCM samples); both of these instruments were far from revolutionary in other respects. For example, Yamaha had just ditched the CS80 - the most sophisticated performance-based synthesizer ever manufactured; and by comparison the DX7 was an amoeba as far as expression was concerned. Similarly the M1 was a simplified mass produced version of the Fairlight. So they were revolutionary in the way that the Volkswagen Beetle was, but not in terms of musical technological capability.

I admit that it utterly bewilders me that every musician I have ever heard express an opinion talk about spontaneity, feeling, emotion and so on; yet most are completely oblivious to the power of performance based synthesis in particular, do not repeatedly demand it and are unwilling to pay for it.

Furthermore, while we bemoan the cost of the OASYS, in actuality it costs the same as an average Yamaha upright piano - and hundreds of thousands of those sell every year worldwide.

I admit it bewilders me why all ambitious and keyboard players and synthesists do not at least look to the likes of the OASYS as a signpost to a future of improved performance and features; why the MAXIMUM performance capabilities invented even over twenty to thirty years ago are not hotly sought after (and especially polyphonic aftertouch) rather than abandoned every two years for the next ‘instant hit’ and why there are so many complaints on the cost of even the OASYS when even average upright pianos cost as much if not more. The OASYS is as good as it gets today; and I for one believe that it is a very valuable signpost to the future. There may be more technology around these days - but it is not being exploited as well as it could be in synthesizers. OASYS comes close - but even here we have all listed off a myriad of possible improvements that, in my view, would lead to hugely improved sales.

Personally I will use the OASYS for decades to come and will buy a backup unit for the long term; but I'd love to think it could also lead to a hugely improved future where music technology is used to its optimum.

In my view that's already happening on two examples recently - the M3 new sequencer is derived directly out of discussions like this and may revitalise the workstation sequencer; while Roland's V Synth GT - in particular - is a supreme example of improved technology - absolutely optimum operating system that provides powerful accessibility to its features (and far superior to even the OASYS OS) and the likes of its D-Beam applied to its Variphrase technology.

So I for one live in hope that, as with the DX7, M1 and indeed even the CS80 and Fairlight; that we are still heading in a brighter direction where musicians, composers and keyboard players benefit from revolutionary (and evolutionary) new technologies, but which sell in sufficient numbers because they are deservedly popular, and expressive. We are nowhere near the end of technological development; nor have we got it ‘right enough’ yet – so there is massive room for improvement and in this I believe OASYS represents the best pointer forward. Surely that’s worth discussing?

Kevin.

[curvebender]

...while Roland's V Synth GT - in particular - is a supreme example of improved technology - absolutely optimum operating system that provides powerful accessibility to its features (and far superior to even the OASYS OS) and the likes of its D-Beam applied to its Variphrase technology.

I agree to the fullest that Rolands line of V-Synths is absolutely amazing when it comes to expression and intriguing ways of manipulating sound. But, and for me it's a big but (!): The OS isn't very well implemented, and the processor (or processors) in the GT are vastly insufficient. As opposed to the Oasys, the GT looses voices very fast, and the graphic interface updates very very slowly at times. This hinders much of the fun that is offered. (I've just spent a few days programming new sounds for the GT, and found myself getting angry often due to the lack of "feedback" from the interface.)
Sluggish knobs, slow screen updates, no system updates and a extremely poorly written manual. Things to consider when talking about improved technology: Elastic Audio IS an improvement to standard sampling and I just love the concept, but it's implemented rather poorly.

Never the less, it's an inspiring instrument!!

[bchurch]

[quote="Kevin Nolan"]I utterly reject the notion that M1 and DX7 level sales can not be reached again - those past instruments were sold within a far poorer world; while guitars and pianos still sell in their millions.


Kevin,
i respect your opinion however those sales levels will not ever be reached. you are right about pianos and guitars...but you left out violins, harmonicas, brass instruments, percussion and singing lessons. All of these sell in the millions every year also but so do computers and sequencing programs. back when the Dx7 and M1 came out how many companies were in the business of making keyboards? less than 20 how many DAW's were there?....none zip zilch nada how many software companies, keyboard manufacturers, and computer companies is there out there now? hundreds. there is too much competion and repetion in the market for anyone to swallow selling anything close to those numbers.
reason #1: 1989 was a "poorer" world this is true, but you didnt have the gov bailing out banks everyday back then. people werent worried about retirement plans loosing money with the drop in the economy. people had an excess of money.

if you have excess money are you going to spend it on "last years keyboard" you missed the point of my post. the general publics miscomception of "if it hasnt changed in looks on three years it hasnt changed in ability". someone walks in off the street and sees last years keyboard they think that the technology is outdated just like last years computer hardware.

reason#2: how many people do you know have pianos in their homes? how many of those people dont know how to play them? did you know people will buy pianos as furniture and not for music? yes they do. if you want to be a naysayer on this explain why people spend so much money on a piano only to let it sit and never tune it even when tuning cost less than 80 bucks? they dont play the thing why tune the thing.

Reason #3: guitars have always outsold evrything else. why should that change? any guitar player can grab an acoustic and compose relatively easily. you only have to applify if you want to. and you might say the same thing about a piano. well have you ever tried moving a 150 year old upright that ways over 1500 pounds? you aint gonna take this thing camping like a guitar.

Reason #4: technological advances have proven that with plug-ins vsti and other file formats such as rex and acid you can literally have any sound you want on your computer. how many sequncer programs are there? 5? 6? 60? new ones every day. and if something works not everyone updates so with various releases and editions of every program out there there are possibly 500 differnt programs to use. and how many makes and models of computers are out here? this was another point you missed. why would the average music player ( not someone who is paid for their music, or someone who does gig) why would they want a huge keyboard with it's own screen, when they can have 37 or 49 note controller and a computer with all those wonderful 'canned' sounds and loops and wavs and samples. Why would they want to spend more time making sounds than just using what someone else has already done? they dont and wont.
next reason: welcome to 2008 the human race is a simple species. why work when you can have someone else do it for you?
Everyone has a computer. and with that they see the 'endless possibilities" of upgradability. People dont see that in the O. we do. that's why we bought it. it boils down to this...the general music public will use a computer to do what we do in the oasys. they wont buy another keyboard.
Do you use Omnisphere or Atmosphere or any other VST?
probably. But You would RATHER use your oasys in conjunction with your computer instead of only your computer. So would I. But alot of people dont want that. they want simplicity and cheap. so they stick to using a program on their computer which they have already.

Another Reason: Crossover sales. If you are a guitar player and you hear all the hype about a keyboard you will look. but if you are a guitar player that's tired of playing with other idiots in a band or you write music alone you need something to help you right? The M1 was a band in a box. a guitarist could sequence drums, bass, pads and keys then play along live or record by himself. this means you had guitar players buying M1's. Nowadays why would a guitar player by a keyboard when he can use his computer for his backing tracks. he wont spend that money on a keyoard now. he's probably already using a recording interface now. why not use the instruments provided in the DAW of his choice?


I'm very glad you have your O...I'm damn glad to have mine. but why worry about how many of the damn things sell? look at your benchmarks.
the DX7 and the M1.....the most selling keyboards in history yes they were wonderful... but are they still in production? uh no. Can you get new old stock from the factory? nope. If the best damn selling keyboards are killed and pulled from their manufacturer's product list what makes you think that even if the O sold that many or more that they wont kill it?

you quote that the M1 was a small version or the Fairlight. And both were technologicaly advanced. Both have gone the way of the doodoo bird. why were the best selling keyboards dropped? because the factory didnt stop making advances. they kept on thrilling us. when you saw an M1 around 1993 did you feel that that was top of the line? it hadn;t changed since 1989. dont you think those four years had some advances in music technology? another point you misssed -back then you had to buy a keyboard every year or two to keep up. just like you might buy a new computer everyother year. that doesnt have to happen anymore. but the keyboard buyer's know nothing about it. Sales personel always push the new stuff. but when the O was new did you get an in-depth tell-you-everything-this-unit-does demo? if you did you are lucky. i didnt i had to sit in front of it and find out those things. did the salesman do anything other then show you it had a sequencer that recorded midi and sound? did they press the Karma button? probably. but that was the extent of it. guess what with all that equipment to try and sell that's all those guys knew about it. just what you can read in an ad somewhere. ( i hate going into some 'chain' music stores for this reason. the snot nosed zit faced kid is too busy texting his girlfriend to learn about what he is selling. i usually know more about a new unit than they do) Korg needed to set a standard type of demo so more people could see the abilities of the O.

I love my OASYS. i shall never part with her. but i really coulnt care less about sales numbers. even if (and that is a huge 'if') ((and i may be wrong. i have been quite a few times)) the O sells to the M1 numbers you think korg will always have the O? nope they will drop it like a hot potato.

So this is what i'm gonna do and i suggest many follow along.

Play the damn thing as long as you can. upgrade the thing when Korg comes out with updates. Ask Korg to Upgade various things so we can use our baby for another decade. but put the M1 and DX7 numbers in the history books. quit worrying about how many sold. that aint gonna keep the O in the product line-up. Play it as long as you can and be thankful you have the O.

BUT dont thumb your nose at advances or technology when they replace the O. Figure out a way to integrate the music and fun you made with the O into whatever advances are there.

(excuse me while i climb down off my soap box)
peace

[Kevin Nolan]

Play the damn thing as long as you can. upgrade the thing when Korg comes out with updates. Ask Korg to Upgade various things so we can use our baby for another decade. but put the M1 and DX7 numbers in the history books. quit worrying about how many sold. that aint gonna keep the O in the product line-up. Play it as long as you can and be thankful you have the O.

BUT dont thumb your nose at advances or technology when they replace the O. Figure out a way to integrate the music and fun you made with the O into whatever advances are there.

(excuse me while i climb down off my soap box)
peace

Amen to that!

I'll go one further at this stage that refers to the original post - I hope a few more sell theirs so I can get another good condition one on ebay in the coming year !!:-)

Cheers!
Kevin.

[bo.h]

Why people buy and then turn around and sell their Oasys?

As opposed to what? Most things we buy we ultimately sell or throw away. Its just a matter of time.

I once had a Dx7, but I sold it long ago. (My bet is that Dx7 beats OASYS when it comes to being resold. The same goes for the M1 even though I never had one.) I also had a MS-20, but I sold that one too. (There have been times when I regretted selling those two, until recently, when I bought my precoiussss..)

Can we please stop this rambling about the future and instead talk about things with more substance? (Like how to use our OASYS in new and previously unimagined ways?)

I really, really miss replies from the Korg-guys while I totally understand why they currently are silent in at least this part of the forum. Lets invite them again with more productive posts shall we?

The only reason why I read these threads despite all nonsense is that sometimes a good reply with informative content pops up. Maybe we could have a sticky thread called "Endless rambling" to which boring posts can be moved to and that OASYS owners like me can avoid?

Just my 2 öre.

[The Keyboard Wizard]

I'm with you on this bo.h

I know I'm new here but what I've seen a lot of here recently is nothing more than fanboy nonsense which often leads to one declaring their love for the O and how everything else is crap.

That's great and all but it's a two way street when someone finds major shortcomings in comparison to another name brand synth and ends with a fight.

Make music with your O. If there is something that gets in the way and info and help is necessary, then the problem should be addressed.
That's what this forum should primarily be about.

FL
www.franklucas.net

[bchurch]

I know I'm new here but what I've seen a lot of here recently is nothing more than fanboy nonsense which often leads to one declaring their love for the O and how everything else is crap.

IF you would READ the posts no one has said anything about everything else is crap. obviously you feel that we think that we only use the O. that is far fromn the truth. we use everything we can to get the results we want. but we like the idea of staying on one platform to do it all. the point you have obviously missed is this. plain and simple we like the O and yes we love the O but if you would kindly look we use all the available devices and resources.
yes i had a DX7. yes i sold it. I've bought and sold 4 differnt M1's. what's your point? of course the DX7 will have higher resale numbers.....they made more. WHO CARES?
we dont care about the sales numbers of past keyboards. and that what this thread led to. you dont always stay on topic. do you always stay on topic when you are having a conversation with a someone in person? uh...no....and if you did no on e would want to talk to you.
you want a sticky note fine. but if you dont like where a thread is going dont read it. no one is holding a gun to your head. it's the close button up in your right hand corner of the screen. start another thread.
you complain about someone professing loving to use their O
well if you dont love your O sell it to one of us that want a back up.

[Kevin Nolan]

It's of course valid to create quick and practical posts; but it's got to be also OK to discuss what are complex issues that are important to the future of keyboards and involve OASYS? I realise I may be attacked because I recently asked another post to stop griping about the M3 (But I did apologise privately for my unfair comments on that post).

I for one am a committed composer and sound designer; and there is no issue of lingering around forums for the sake of it. Korgforums offers light relief after heavy work and a very intersting community. If all issues pertaining to OASYsScannot be discussed here, then I do not know where. I only wish more responses were forthcoming on such issues.

[curvebender]

It's of course valid to create quick and practical posts; but it's got to be also OK to discuss what are complex issues that are important to the future of keyboards and involve OASYS? I realise I may be attacked because I recently asked another post to stop griping about the M3 (But I did apologise privately for my unfair comments on that post).

I for one am a committed composer and sound designer; and there is no issue of lingering around forums for the sake of it. Korgforums offers light relief after heavy work and a very intersting community. If all issues pertaining to OASYsScannot be discussed here, then I do not know where. I only wish more responses were forthcoming on such issues.

That's true, but in all honesty Kevin, you're kind of quick asking the moderators to lock threads because you find them irrelevant and/or boring...