Korg Forums

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:18 pm**

This is why they're SUBTRACTIVE. That's a synthesis method. The principle of work is the same between them: get a raw sound, filter it, amplify it. Add modulations if you want. In this regard, they're the same.

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:23 pm**

I didn't say they are not - but we're also not Korg marketing....

EvilDragon wrote:This is why they're SUBTRACTIVE. That's a synthesis method. The principle of work is the same between them: get a raw sound, filter it, amplify it. Add modulations if you want. In this regard, they're the same.

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:45 pm**

Exactly.

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:02 pm**

Evildragon, I agree with you that KRONOS has fewer models than it has engines. The analog engines are all variants of one kind of model. KRONOS could use more models. Bowed string, brass, and reed models are obvious choices, since MOSS has them. Models for specific unusual instruments would be good too, like uilleann pipes, sitar, harmonium. The SuperArticulation uilleann pipes on the Tyros are very sweet. Some of these instruments can be done with articulated sample synthesis, but others like the sitar, which depends on sympathetic resonance, could use more advanced physical modelling.

Then there's the ultimate challenge for physical modelling: the human vocal tract.

I'd like to see KRONOS do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTXO7KGHtjI

or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbq7Ji25Ieo

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:25 pm**

danatkorg wrote:
It's true that the max number of voices for some of the engines is lower than on the OASYS. (Some, on the other hand, are higher.) However, there's a compensating factor: with the KRONOS, effects typically do not impinge on polyphony. For instance, on the OASYS you can play a max of 172 voices of HD-1, but if you use effects, that number will be reduced. Use lots of effects, and it can go down significantly. On the KRONOS, on the other hand, our informal tests (insert normal disclaimers here: all specs subject to change, etc.) show that we can use 14 Overbs (the most computationally expensive effect) without affecting polyphony at all. The 15th and 16th Overbs start to reduce polyphony, but that's really an extreme case.

Overbs are by far the most CPU-intensive effects on the KRONOS, btw. The "normal" reverbs are next in line at around 70% of the Overb. 16 instances of most normal effects - I just looked at choruses, reverse delays, overdrives, vocoders - don't even go over 30-40% of the available effects resources, leaving plenty of room for two sets of effects to coexist during Seamless Sound Transitions. (Btw - note that even the "basic" Stereo Chorus effect is still pretty full-featured, with 24 parameters including modulation, 2 bands of dedicated EQ, LFO sync, etc.) You can view all of this resource usage info in real-time on the Performance Meters page.

Holy mother of God! Dan - I'm laughing with excitement. 14 Overbs and no drop in polyphony - mother of God tonight! You've just sold it to me (again!). For non-OASYS users - Overb is a monster. It easily surpasses the TCElectronics M2000 Reverb and may be on a par with the M3000 (I claim that superficially - I don't have enough experience on the M3000 to stand fully on that claim but my experience suggests so). Let's put it this way - you can make Overb reverberate infinitely and at no reasonable point do you hear ringinig / graining... It is silky smooth. Run a few of those on the OASYS and you really notice a drop in polyphony. To not loose polyphony when running 14 of those is a shockingly impressive statistic. Phew! I said it on another thread today, but Korg software is an art in itself.

Kevin.

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:21 pm**

Kevin Nolan wrote: Holy mother of God! Dan - I'm laughing with excitement. 14 Overbs and no drop in polyphony - mother of God tonight! You've just sold it to me (again!). For non-OASYS users - Overb is a monster. It easily surpasses the TCElectronics M2000 Reverb and may be on a par with the M3000 (I claim that superficially - I don't have enough experience on the M3000 to stand fully on that claim but my experience suggests so). Let's put it this way - you can make Overb reverberate infinitely and at no reasonable point do you hear ringinig / graining... It is silky smooth. Run a few of those on the OASYS and you really notice a drop in polyphony. To not loose polyphony when running 14 of those is a shockingly impressive statistic. Phew! I said it on another thread today, but Korg software is an art in itself.
Kevin.

All valid points (Overb kicks ass, really). For me it's the best reverb effect ever in a keyboard, not by a mile, but by a parsec. Or a dedicated synth card (OASYS PCI). But I can add something in terms of M3000. M3000 is - from what I've heard and I've used it extensively on pretty much everything - a lot on drums, a bit on keyboards, a lot on vocals - one HELL of a piece of gear that's something completely different to the Overb. It has incredible presets ment for absolutely anything from drums to vocals, and sounds equally as impressive in 24bit/96kHz resolution. It's crystal-clear and unbelieveably detailed for a 1000EUR category effect. It's pointless to compare it to Overb as it's really different on all accounts, especially in character. And much, much more expensive

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:30 pm**

Kevin Nolan wrote:For non-OASYS users - Overb is a monster. It easily surpasses the TCElectronics M2000 Reverb and may be on a par with the M3000 (I claim that superficially - I don't have enough experience on the M3000 to stand fully on that claim but my experience suggests so).

Kevin, do you (or anyone else here) have any experience with the Kurzweil Rumour? It's one block of their flagship KSP8 processor, and it is truly phenomenal for reverbs, everything from small spaces up through gigantic imaginary ones. But if the Overb will render it obsolete, I'll happily sell that, too...

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:18 pm**

I was wondering about the quality of the Overb myself. I'm familiar with the "White Verb" in the Yamaha Motif series, but have yet to experience the intriguing offerings by Kurzweil. What's in the effects section of the PC3 is supposed to be more than in the KSP8, which is lusted after by a lot of people. It's spoken of in the same regard that people have for the Lexicon PCMs and TC Electronics M3000.

Yamaha's White Verb is very close to what's in the SPX-900, and that's a very nice unit, close to the M2000 which I have access to. So needless to say, the Motif does have some delicious effects to lay over the sounds it plays. From what I've heard of the PC3, the weak part is the Leslie simulation, and it's still very good. And it can be tweaked to be even better. The rest of the effects are superb.

If the effects in KRONOS can stand toe to toe to even the weakest of these competitors, I'm plenty happy. If it's better, stupendous! Well... except I have to wait for it.

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:31 pm**

synthguy wrote:What's in the effects section of the PC3 is supposed to be more than in the KSP8, which is lusted after by a lot of people.

DOUBLE the power of KSP8. That's what's inside.

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:49 pm**

it's just so nice to be even discussing if it has 9 or 5 sound engines, how many other boards at this price point can say that, not many if any

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:26 pm**

vEddY wrote:M3000 is - from what I've heard and I've used it extensively on pretty much everything - a lot on drums, a bit on keyboards, a lot on vocals - one HELL of a piece of gear that's something completely different to the Overb. It has incredible presets ment for absolutely anything from drums to vocals, and sounds equally as impressive in 24bit/96kHz resolution. It's crystal-clear and unbelieveably detailed for a 1000EUR category effect. It's pointless to compare it to Overb as it's really different on all accounts, especially in character. And much, much more expensive

Not to my ears! Yes M3000 is incredible - but so is Overb - I do not say that likely. It really is absolutely magnificient. This is subjective I know but Overb is a very, very capable reverb (and I've used/tried a lot of them). I accept - we could argue this forever. The general point I want to get across is that the Overb is a magnificent reverb - easily usable as a main reverb in a range of scenarios, and if Kronos ever makes it to a rack with its effects separately routable to a DAW, it will win over a lot of fans (and not just for Overb).

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:46 pm**

EvilDragon wrote:This is why they're SUBTRACTIVE. That's a synthesis method. The principle of work is the same between them: get a raw sound, filter it, amplify it. Add modulations if you want. In this regard, they're the same.

Dog with a bone, dog with a bone.

So nine engines, minus 3 for the analogs, plus 1 because you have to have at least one type represented equals 7. Then subtract the other models which have filters in them, like STR-1 and stuff, so that makes it 3. Yeah, that leaves you with the piano, ep, and organ. So really there are only 4 models in the Kronos.

But most natural instrument sounds decay with a (basically) closing-low-pass filter response, the same kind of filter typically found in an analog synthesizer. So that covers piano and EP. So at the end of the day, there are really only 2 models. The organ (which is additive) and all of the rest.

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:48 am**

EvilDragon wrote:This is why they're SUBTRACTIVE. That's a synthesis method. The principle of work is the same between them: get a raw sound, filter it, amplify it. Add modulations if you want. In this regard, they're the same.

But who cares that in some unimportant theoretical way they are the same?
From any practical point of view, they are 9 distinctly different synths offering sounds that don't have much in common with each other, and that's what matters.

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:00 am**

I think I'm with EvilDragon on this one.

In fact, as I see it, you've got your "ROMpler" sounds (HD-1, SGX-1, EP-1, and CX-3), "virtual analog" sounds (AL-1, MS20, Polysix), "FM" sounds (MOD-7), and "modeling" sounds (STR-1). This, at least, is how I think about the Kronos when trying to imagine how it would fit in with the rest of my setup. And for that -- which to me is what really counts -- I don't care about the different so-called "engines" (much less the marketing verbiage).

That said, I don't think Korg is misleading potential buyers when advertising Kronos as possessing nine synth engines (or whatever term they're using)...

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:53 am**

EvilDragon wrote:Let's agree to disagree then. :/ It's 5 clear, distinct, types of synthesis, for me, and I think you can see why I'm drawing that conclusion.

3 different VAs, it's still VA in essence, because they all share the basic subtractive synthesis principle (contrary to your statement that they share nothing in common!). Hell, even HD-1 and other sampler "engines" can go here then, which brings us to 4 clearly distinct synthesis types total:

* subtractive synthesis
* tonewheel modeling
* string modeling
* FM

And this is what ultimately matters. Now, I'm not devalueing Kronos here, it seems like a magnificent board, but I'm not that easily swayed by the "nine" hype. It's 4 in the essence of it (even correcting myself from post #1 ).

Hi,
...at the very end...who cares if "Kronos" use 2, 3 ,5 or 9 Synthesis engine?, "Kronos" is a awesome piece of Hardware, not released yet to the public but with a lot of hopes for many Musicians , Producers and Amateurs players all around the World, "Welcome Kronos", the "Evolution" is always very welcome.

Korg Forums

9 engines, but 5 types of synthesis