OK, then to go straight to the heart of your original question: no, you're not crazy to use the Kronos as your DAW. No need for a computer.ChristianRock wrote:I think I'll be fine with the 16 MIDI + 16 Audio
Kronos as my DAW?
Moderators: Sharp, X-Trade, Pepperpotty, karmathanever
Korg gear: Kronos 73.
Other gear: Oberheim SEM | SCI Prophet 5 | Roland MKS-70 | Waldorf Microwave XTk
Other gear: Oberheim SEM | SCI Prophet 5 | Roland MKS-70 | Waldorf Microwave XTk
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ChristianRock
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:06 pm
- Location: Atlanta - United States
Apologies - I now get what you mean and you're right, DAW is probably best way to go.ChristianRock wrote:I am interested, but your comment "it's called multi-tracking" was unfortunate because I currently do multi-tracking on my Tascam tape unit (just like Vangelis and Jarre did, by the way), and I will obviously do multi-tracking on the Kronos.cello wrote:Easy.
I was responding to your assertion that it was hard work putting different tracks together through the K onto a seperate device.
I have no interest in trolling, and as you are making it clear you are not interested in other people's opinions or methods, I will leave you to your world.
Bon chance!
You failed to see that if I use the Kronos and D3200 both, I would be doubling that effort unnecessarily. That was my whole point, but you chose to make fun of me instead. That's why I called it trolling. If this was just an oversight on your part, I apologize for the reply.
Most important thing is that you enjoy your creative process!
Peace.
Plugged in: Fantom 8, Jupiter-X, Jupiter 80, System-8, JD-XA, V-Synth GTv2, FA-06, SE-02, JU-06A, TR-09, VT-4, Go:Livecast, Rubix44, Shure SM7b, Push2, Ableton 11 Suite, Sibelius, KRK Rokit 5,
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ChristianRock
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:06 pm
- Location: Atlanta - United States
No problems, I was hoping you just read it wrongcello wrote:Apologies - I now get what you mean and you're right, DAW is probably best way to go.ChristianRock wrote:I am interested, but your comment "it's called multi-tracking" was unfortunate because I currently do multi-tracking on my Tascam tape unit (just like Vangelis and Jarre did, by the way), and I will obviously do multi-tracking on the Kronos.cello wrote:Easy.
I was responding to your assertion that it was hard work putting different tracks together through the K onto a seperate device.
I have no interest in trolling, and as you are making it clear you are not interested in other people's opinions or methods, I will leave you to your world.
Bon chance!
You failed to see that if I use the Kronos and D3200 both, I would be doubling that effort unnecessarily. That was my whole point, but you chose to make fun of me instead. That's why I called it trolling. If this was just an oversight on your part, I apologize for the reply.
Most important thing is that you enjoy your creative process!
Peace.
DAW is the best way to go? Better than using Kronos as DAW? Please explain...
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ChristianRock
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:06 pm
- Location: Atlanta - United States
I'll chime in and say that the KRONOS is a full featured 16 track hard disc recorder.....and thus in every sense of the word, it is a DAW. However, like EVERY hardware based DAW, its editing capabilities as far as speed of execution, ease of use, visual cues, and user interface, is going to be limited compared to ANY software DAW. In the digital world, track count "shouldn't" be a limiting factor....due to the ability to bounce tracks and sub-mix with no noise floor. However, in practice, it can surely be nice to stay "native" in your tracked recordings (not commit to a bounce down) so that you can make changes later in a project. This is where a higher track count can be nice...it gives you flexibility of choice.
However, I fully support and appreciate a desire to work in the hardware world, without touching a computer, which by its nature leads to maintenance, and surprise distractions away from the creative flow. So, aside from the inherent limitations of hardware DAWs as compared to software DAW's, I think the KRONOS makes a cutting edge "hardware" DAW, with its User Interface, and fantastic effects routing, and effects quality and editing. Also its internal sync to MIDI tracks, which is huge. Its on board "touch-screen" waveform editing is nice too, as hardware DAWs go. All in all, its cutting edge in the current hardware DAW world....which if you have not noticed is VERY limited these days...because most people go the software route, so manufacturers have stopped producing these. Gone are the KORG, ROLAND, and even the higher end TASCAM hardware DAWs (albeit TASCAM's 48 track monster at a huge cost). Most hardware DAWs these days are low end machines made primarily for guitarists and home hobbyists. So the KRONOS sort of stands alone right now as a fresh new (latest updated tech) hardware DAW. Not much recent competition to it. Its integration into a keyboard workstation is simply a plus all around. And having a 8 1/2 inch color touch screen interface, it stands alone!
As a new KRONOS owner, I have been playing around with the audio recorder section, and I think its fantastic. It was a feature that I was very eager for, having nothing to do with KRONOS keyboard capabilities. I found this a big bonus to my purchase decision, that I was picking up a full featured 16 track DAW along the way. And its everything you hope it will be!
One great feature, which again in the digital world makes track count a very different consideration than it did in the analog world, is its Over-Dub recording mode. Where you can continue to layer and merge new recordings on top of existing recordings....all on the same track! So in essence, you can record 48 (or more) separate recordings (takes), a complete Opus if you choose, all on ONE track. with no tangible noise build up. Then you have 15 more tracks to do it all again, or bounce to your heart's content. You can link tracks as stereo pairs, so you truly can do a whole song, over-dubbing and tracking at your leisure, all on a pair of tracks. And yes, the Compare button works in this regard too.
I have to say that that I totally see cello's point about using the D3200 or any other external hardware DAW to increase track count. The issue is syncing these extra tracks to run in tandem with your KRONOS. If you can do that, so the external DAW chases the KRONOS (whether by MIDI, or timecode), then it makes LOTS of sense to add to your track count in this way. And yes, I also see his point about using the KRONOS effects routing as nothing more than a hardware effects unit while tracking to an external device. In KRONOS, you can route an input (analog or digital) through the effects system...INDEPENDENTLY...of your song tracks. So you can have your 16 audio and midi tracks on KRONOS all set up the way you want, with effects, and still route a signal from the analog input, through an effect or two, and on out to an output (analog or digital) into another device for tracking. As long as those two devices are sync'd up, its going to be no different than working with the first 16 audio tracks on board the KRONOS.....just changing the routing to a different output. The limitations will only come from the number of physical inputs and outputs on the KRONOS (and on the other device), as to how many separate audio streams you can get going back and forth. But this should't be to big a deal as long as you apply your effects in editing, rather than recording multiple tracks in real time with a large live recording.
However, I fully support and appreciate a desire to work in the hardware world, without touching a computer, which by its nature leads to maintenance, and surprise distractions away from the creative flow. So, aside from the inherent limitations of hardware DAWs as compared to software DAW's, I think the KRONOS makes a cutting edge "hardware" DAW, with its User Interface, and fantastic effects routing, and effects quality and editing. Also its internal sync to MIDI tracks, which is huge. Its on board "touch-screen" waveform editing is nice too, as hardware DAWs go. All in all, its cutting edge in the current hardware DAW world....which if you have not noticed is VERY limited these days...because most people go the software route, so manufacturers have stopped producing these. Gone are the KORG, ROLAND, and even the higher end TASCAM hardware DAWs (albeit TASCAM's 48 track monster at a huge cost). Most hardware DAWs these days are low end machines made primarily for guitarists and home hobbyists. So the KRONOS sort of stands alone right now as a fresh new (latest updated tech) hardware DAW. Not much recent competition to it. Its integration into a keyboard workstation is simply a plus all around. And having a 8 1/2 inch color touch screen interface, it stands alone!
As a new KRONOS owner, I have been playing around with the audio recorder section, and I think its fantastic. It was a feature that I was very eager for, having nothing to do with KRONOS keyboard capabilities. I found this a big bonus to my purchase decision, that I was picking up a full featured 16 track DAW along the way. And its everything you hope it will be!
One great feature, which again in the digital world makes track count a very different consideration than it did in the analog world, is its Over-Dub recording mode. Where you can continue to layer and merge new recordings on top of existing recordings....all on the same track! So in essence, you can record 48 (or more) separate recordings (takes), a complete Opus if you choose, all on ONE track. with no tangible noise build up. Then you have 15 more tracks to do it all again, or bounce to your heart's content. You can link tracks as stereo pairs, so you truly can do a whole song, over-dubbing and tracking at your leisure, all on a pair of tracks. And yes, the Compare button works in this regard too.
I have to say that that I totally see cello's point about using the D3200 or any other external hardware DAW to increase track count. The issue is syncing these extra tracks to run in tandem with your KRONOS. If you can do that, so the external DAW chases the KRONOS (whether by MIDI, or timecode), then it makes LOTS of sense to add to your track count in this way. And yes, I also see his point about using the KRONOS effects routing as nothing more than a hardware effects unit while tracking to an external device. In KRONOS, you can route an input (analog or digital) through the effects system...INDEPENDENTLY...of your song tracks. So you can have your 16 audio and midi tracks on KRONOS all set up the way you want, with effects, and still route a signal from the analog input, through an effect or two, and on out to an output (analog or digital) into another device for tracking. As long as those two devices are sync'd up, its going to be no different than working with the first 16 audio tracks on board the KRONOS.....just changing the routing to a different output. The limitations will only come from the number of physical inputs and outputs on the KRONOS (and on the other device), as to how many separate audio streams you can get going back and forth. But this should't be to big a deal as long as you apply your effects in editing, rather than recording multiple tracks in real time with a large live recording.
Thanks!
Actually, inputs: 2 analog, and 2 digital SPDIF and 2 digital USB. If you set your sources up you can get 6 unique inputs.....but KRONOS will only record 4 tracks at once.
yes the perfect situation would include a small format mixer...which is built in to many external hardware DAW's.....ie D3200.
Actually, inputs: 2 analog, and 2 digital SPDIF and 2 digital USB. If you set your sources up you can get 6 unique inputs.....but KRONOS will only record 4 tracks at once.
yes the perfect situation would include a small format mixer...which is built in to many external hardware DAW's.....ie D3200.
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ChristianRock
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:06 pm
- Location: Atlanta - United States
Thanks, that was a very thoughtful response and gave me things to think about.
I still think I won't need additional tracks and the resources available in the Kronos are plenty. Currently I work with 16-tracks on the reel to reel recorder, and this is how I've typically built a song, in my latest CD:
Drums: 2 tracks (that was extremely limiting at mix time, because I had to record my drums mixed already, guessing what they'd sound with the other instruments. But most of the time I think I made it work)
Bass: 1 track
Guitar: 3 tracks (2 rhythm, 1 lead)
Vocals: 4 tracks (2 lead, 2 backing)
Keys: 6 tracks (2 stereo piano, 2 pads w/effects, 2 other sounds)
It could vary a bit from song to song, but that's a typical setup.
So, I'll effectively be doubling my track count with the Kronos (Drums+Keys will go to the 16 MIDI tracks, Bass+Guitar+Vocals to 16 audio tracks - that's plenty!! I'm not Enya.)
So, in conclusion: I will not need additional audio tracks
Audio inputs isn't an issue either. I won't be recording acoustic drums or producing other people's bands. 2 inputs at a time for guitar, vocals and bass is totally fine for me.
I think my main concern at this point is workflow and sound quality. 32-bit floating point is one of my concerns, but it might not make that much of a difference because we're not talking 100 tracks here being mixed together at one time. On a typical song I won't even use all 16 audio tracks. I'm not going to start recording 8 takes of guitar now just because I have the tracks available
The other concern is effects such as EQ, compression and the mastering effects. Are these going to give me totally professional results? I'm pretty sure reverbs and choruses and such are going to be fantastic, but those are the ones that I'm concerned about.
Thanks to all who chimed in!
I still think I won't need additional tracks and the resources available in the Kronos are plenty. Currently I work with 16-tracks on the reel to reel recorder, and this is how I've typically built a song, in my latest CD:
Drums: 2 tracks (that was extremely limiting at mix time, because I had to record my drums mixed already, guessing what they'd sound with the other instruments. But most of the time I think I made it work)
Bass: 1 track
Guitar: 3 tracks (2 rhythm, 1 lead)
Vocals: 4 tracks (2 lead, 2 backing)
Keys: 6 tracks (2 stereo piano, 2 pads w/effects, 2 other sounds)
It could vary a bit from song to song, but that's a typical setup.
So, I'll effectively be doubling my track count with the Kronos (Drums+Keys will go to the 16 MIDI tracks, Bass+Guitar+Vocals to 16 audio tracks - that's plenty!! I'm not Enya.)
So, in conclusion: I will not need additional audio tracks
Audio inputs isn't an issue either. I won't be recording acoustic drums or producing other people's bands. 2 inputs at a time for guitar, vocals and bass is totally fine for me.
I think my main concern at this point is workflow and sound quality. 32-bit floating point is one of my concerns, but it might not make that much of a difference because we're not talking 100 tracks here being mixed together at one time. On a typical song I won't even use all 16 audio tracks. I'm not going to start recording 8 takes of guitar now just because I have the tracks available
The other concern is effects such as EQ, compression and the mastering effects. Are these going to give me totally professional results? I'm pretty sure reverbs and choruses and such are going to be fantastic, but those are the ones that I'm concerned about.
Thanks to all who chimed in!
@CR: sounds like a sensible, compact setup. And you could easily deal with any limitations that might arise. Want to track more than two instruments at once? Get a line mixer. Want high-end signal processing? Just route the audio out to some nice outboard, and bring it back in after processing.
In other words, I really do think you can make Kronos work as your DAW centerpiece. You know, as one computer-free home studio owner to another.
In other words, I really do think you can make Kronos work as your DAW centerpiece. You know, as one computer-free home studio owner to another.
Korg gear: Kronos 73.
Other gear: Oberheim SEM | SCI Prophet 5 | Roland MKS-70 | Waldorf Microwave XTk
Other gear: Oberheim SEM | SCI Prophet 5 | Roland MKS-70 | Waldorf Microwave XTk
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ChristianRock
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:06 pm
- Location: Atlanta - United States
Ooooo yeah
So, if Stephen Kay ever reads this thread, I'd be curious to know how he felt the workflow was when he was mixing the Challenger song in the sticky of this forum...
...and anyone who's done this kind of thing on the Oasys, feel free to reply as well
(I've done a search, but I haven't found many threads on Oasys being used as a DAW)
So, if Stephen Kay ever reads this thread, I'd be curious to know how he felt the workflow was when he was mixing the Challenger song in the sticky of this forum...
...and anyone who's done this kind of thing on the Oasys, feel free to reply as well
(I've done a search, but I haven't found many threads on Oasys being used as a DAW)
Did you see this one?ChristianRock wrote:(I've done a search, but I haven't found many threads on Oasys being used as a DAW)
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... b67ede059f
Korg gear: Kronos 73.
Other gear: Oberheim SEM | SCI Prophet 5 | Roland MKS-70 | Waldorf Microwave XTk
Other gear: Oberheim SEM | SCI Prophet 5 | Roland MKS-70 | Waldorf Microwave XTk
hey ...dont skip on mike oldfield..Tubular bells was 68 dubs!
cello wrote:Well, it worked for Vangelis, Jarre and Tomita... it's called multi-tracking!
Korg PA4X, Nord Stage 3, Virus Ti Polar, Novation Nova II, Yamaha S70XS, MPC-X, TC Helicon Voicelive Rack, KRK VXT8 monitors, 2012 LP Standard, 1999 Am. hardtail Strat, Fender DRRI, Orange AD30HTC, Marshall Vintage Modern, 2 cans and a piece of string...
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ChristianRock
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:06 pm
- Location: Atlanta - United States