RH3 difference between SV-1/PA-588. Which one in Kronos-88?

[phattbuzz]

Bruce and I have read the same from a very good source- note off velocity info is lost when controlling Kronos with a midi controller

Not completely lost, instead of a midi value between 0-127 I think Dan mentioned that it is automatically set to 64 if no value is recieved via midi.

So if an external keyboard has Midi note off velocity it will work. I don't think there are a lot of keyboards that have that feature, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[GregC]

Bruce and I have read the same from a very good source- note off velocity info is lost when controlling Kronos with a midi controller

Not completely lost, instead of a midi value between 0-127 I think Dan mentioned that it is automatically set to 64 if no value is recieved via midi.

So if an external keyboard has Midi note off velocity it will work. I don't think there are a lot of keyboards that have that feature, but correct me if I'm wrong.

thats what I understand

[Bruce Lychee]

Bruce and I have read the same from a very good source- note off velocity info is lost when controlling Kronos with a midi controller

Not completely lost, instead of a midi value between 0-127 I think Dan mentioned that it is automatically set to 64 if no value is recieved via midi.

So if an external keyboard has Midi note off velocity it will work. I don't think there are a lot of keyboards that have that feature, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually, I believe that is not the case. I think Dan mentioned that in order to deal with the fact that most keyboards don't send true note off velocity info, they made it so the Kronos will treat any external midi info as fixed value note off velocity. I believe the only way to preserve the Kronos note off velocity info is to play it through the Kronos. I will look for the thread with that post.

[SanderXpander]

That's because those venues always provide top-level pianos from standrad well-known piano manufacturers. The behavior of these pianos would be intimately familiar and very likely acceptable to any seriously trained pianist.

I'm sorry, but this is just plain wrong. I consider myself a seriously trained pianist, and playing piano supplies about 80 percent of my income (the other 20 percent being recording others/producing). I play grands, stage pianos, upright acoustics and Rhodes pianos but if you think that I am "intimately familiar" with all the top level pianos from "standard well-known piano manufacturers" you are sorely mistaken. While I can obviously not speak for everyone, I feel I can speak for my direct colleagues in saying that we have better things to do than learn and keep up with so many different actions. I know the actions of the pianos that I play regularly, but even the three Yamaha C6s that I can recall have very different actions. There is no saying what a random C6 might play like until you sit down. In that sense electronic substitutes are much better since they tend to be near enough to identical from instrument to instrument of the same type.

But the main point of this is that I wholeheartedly agree with PianoManChuck - you sit down, play and adapt. If you are well trained, the initial adaptation takes maybe 10 seconds, and after half an hour it should be quite refined.
Of course it's still possible to have preferences, and I encourage everyone to play a board theyt like the feel of, but to say that the Kronos "doesn't play like a real piano" is simply wrong.

[madbeatzyo111]

I was speaking more from a concert pianist's perspective. Would it be acceptable to Horowitz to arrive to anything less than a reputable manufacturer's concert grand at any respectable orchestra? How about a Chopin competition in which the contestants must be able to depend on the piano being a known type and action? Do you think that a crappy piano would suffice in any of these situations because a good pianist can just "adapt" and play equally well???

OK fine, so these are situations that few of us may ever find ourselves in. But just because the venue is not as high level, does it mean we should accept any POS piano that's handed to us? Well if it's our livelihood, then yes you're right we'd better darn well adapt. But that doesn't change the fact that it's still a crappy action that we're adapting to. What's even more egregious in this case is that we're choosing to and paying 4 grand for the privilege!

[Chrutil]

Actually, I believe that is not the case. I think Dan mentioned that in order to deal with the fact that most keyboards don't send true note off velocity info, they made it so the Kronos will treat any external midi info as fixed value note off velocity. I believe the only way to preserve the Kronos note off velocity info is to play it through the Kronos. I will look for the thread with that post.

Is there a specific program we can use to validate this? I'm dabbling with writing some midi interfacing software to my K88 (really wanted a very simple step sequencer) so I can send it any kind of values for note-off velocity to verify the response, but I don't know of any sound that would use it?

Thanks,
C

[Bruce Lychee]

Actually, I believe that is not the case. I think Dan mentioned that in order to deal with the fact that most keyboards don't send true note off velocity info, they made it so the Kronos will treat any external midi info as fixed value note off velocity. I believe the only way to preserve the Kronos note off velocity info is to play it through the Kronos. I will look for the thread with that post.

Is there a specific program we can use to validate this? I'm dabbling with writing some midi interfacing software to my K88 (really wanted a very simple step sequencer) so I can send it any kind of values for note-off velocity to verify the response, but I don't know of any sound that would use it?

Thanks,
C

According to Korg the piano and EPs both use it.

[aron]

> According to Korg the piano and EPs both use it.

Do you know what it affects? Why is it so important?

[Bruce Lychee]

> According to Korg the piano and EPs both use it.

Do you know what it affects? Why is it so important?

I haven't tested it out and really don't know if the audible effect is significant. I doubt it is, however they did run it through their spectral test over at Pianoworld and the tester did report noticing something there. He was planning on modifying the test to account for the note off velocity info, but if the Kronos won't receive that info I'm not sure that it will matter.

[Chrutil]

I haven't tested it out and really don't know if the audible effect is significant. I doubt it is, however they did run it through their spectral test over at Pianoworld and the tester did report noticing something there.

Yeah I suspect it is probably there, but the effect is too subtle for me to pick up on. I'm trying, but can't hear anything conclusive when attempting to release the keys at different velocities.

[aron]

I would guess it's the noise part of the hammer... Since they fix it at 64, it cannot be that important an issue. Kind of weird to do that.

[PianoManChuck]

But that doesn't change the fact that it's still a crappy action that we're adapting to. What's even more egregious in this case is that we're choosing to and paying 4 grand for the privilege!

I disagree... I find the action to be excellent (IMO)! But you're missing the entire point here... the keyboard - irregardless of action - is just a tool. If you don't adapt, then its just an excuse. Point is... I'm going to use whatever tool I'm sitting at to play music. A few seconds and I've adapted. There's no "like" or "dislike" - its like a car - you get in and you drive it - period. Sure, you could be driving a Rolls Royce or a Bentley, or playing on a Bosendorfer Imperial for that matter. But if you have to have the best each and every time, its no longer a "tool" or a means of getting the job done... its being spoiled. With that kind of attitude I'd recommend selling it and getting something to satisfy your requirement for the type of action you're looking for first, capabilities second.
I purchased the Kronos because I can get the job done - and more! I was very pleasantly surprised with its action.

[SanderXpander]

+1 to pianomanchuck.
@madbeatzyo111
You did miss the point of what I was saying. The Steinway D grand at the conservatory that I played at every public performance played very differently and much less to my liking than the Steinway D in the rehearsal room. But you adapt and play it and it's not a problem. Whether it's me playing it or Horowitz doesn't change anything about the actions. By the way, solo concert pianists who don't have their own grand flown in generally get a choice of two or more grands at the venue and spend some hours before performance exactly to adapt.

Instruments differ and you are talking taste much more than quality. Excuse me to call authority on this, but I doubt you've played many grands intensively or you'd understand what I mean.

[jimknopf]

+1, completely agree.

I have played all kinds of different keybeds, and if I would make as much ado about all of them, I would never have played much on 80% of the gear, including instruments from Rhodes over half-weighted keybeds to Moogs. My Kronos 73 has one of the best and most comfortable actions which I have played over the years.

If someone has a similar action on his Kronos and doesn't like it or just can't adapt well to it, that's another point. But telling other users that it's crappy - as if that were a fact - is just that from my view: a bit crappy.

[madbeatzyo111]

To PianoManChuck, SanderXpander and "jumpin' on the bandwagon" Jim, I did not miss your point. In fact I made the same argument a while ago here:

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... rh3+keybed

But consider this scenario. If someone gave you a Steinway or Bosendorfer concert grand and you happened not to prefer its key action, what would you do? Would you turn your nose down at it? Of course not, you'd damn well get used to it!

In my opinion, Korg/Roland/Yamaha all know how to make hammer actions that simulate that of acoustic pianos very well. If you don't happen to like a keyboard's hammer action but like everything else about the keyboard, chances are you'll get used to it eventually and may even come to prefer it in the future.

I still believe what I wrote back then, but this time I'm arguing something slightly different and I apologize if I confused anybody in the process. Please bear with me.

For pianos and acoustic instruments in general, the input has a direct physical connection to the sound created. Thus the action of a piano has a direct influence on the properties and dynamic quality of the sound produced. Given this, it's no surprise that every piano feels and sounds slightly different, even from the same manufacturer (although you'd be hard-pressed to find as much variation in mass-produced pianos like Yamahas). It's something that pianists discover early on and have learned to adapt to, as has been mentioned to death and back already.

This is not the case for keyboard synths however. The sound produced is quite independent of the physical action of the keybed. I could MIDI up a nanokey or an RD700 to the Kronos, and just by tweaking a few settings get the exact same sound on both. So here's my point. The Kronos' awesome piano sound is staggeringly incongruous with the hammer action with which it is mated. To me it is absolutely jarring to listen to that great sound and feel something equivalent to a Wurlitzer console under my fingers. Am I spoiled? No, I simply expect the action to be of commensurate quality to the sound produced. As an example, I think the SP250 is an excellent DP!

You all talk of adapting to the Kronos action, but it's not really "adapting" at all is it? It's more like lowering your expectations.